Sid: My guests are red are red are hot for the Messiah. Clarice and Ronnie Holden, I’m speaking to the by way of telephone at their home in Shallotte, NC. Ronnie you were addicted to drugs and alcohol, you had a restaurant business, and things were really in trouble. Why did you decide to go, FINALLY, to a rehabilitation center?

Ronnie: Basically because I knew I was going to die. I had tried so many things to get off the cocaine, I drank constantly, and I had tried so many times.

Sid: Were you a Christian?

Ronnie: No I wasn’t.

Sid: Why not?

Ronnie: That was the farthest thing from my mind. I thought I was really a strong person. The people who went to church I thought they were weak, and the church was a crutch to them…

Sid: Wwwwwwell your wife was a Christian didn’t that mean something to you?

Ronnie: I made fun of her going to church she went to a nondenominational church.

Sid: Clarice did you have any faith that your husband would one day get off of drugs and be red hot for Jesus? Did you believe for that?

Clarice: I certainly did Sid. I hung onto that faith that one day our home would be whole.

Sid: You told me you even had a prophecy that you hung onto. What was that prophecy?

Clarice: This guy gave me a word he said “The last 3 years has been really bad, but the next 3 years is going to be a living hell.” I just…

Sid: Oy vey, who would want a word like that (Laughing)?

Clarice: “But your husband will be on his deathbed. He will be alone and he will have a divine visitation from God, and your house will be saved.”

Sid: My goodness the presence of God is on you just repeating that prophecy. Okay, Ronnie you reached your wits end, you’re suicidal, you determine you’re gonna go into a rehab program. What happened next?

Ronnie: I went into rehab, and it took over 2 weeks for the treatment to get me off of cocaine. The prescription drugs I was taking had DT’s…

Sid: Now that had… I had never been on drugs fortunately, but I understand it is really hard to get off of cocaine.

Ronnie: It’s hard to get off of it, and it’s something you can’t do on your own. Even rehabs, they help people and people who don’t have God, if God doesn’t deliver them, it’s a struggle for them all their lives. Fortunately, you know I got down on my knees one night. I have already gone to AA…

Sid: But you weren’t a Christian what were you doing on your knees?

Ronnie: Well I had come to the end of my rope. I said “Well let me try this I tried everything else.” I bought all these books on religion on Zen; I had been so many places tried to change my life. I had made changes in what I did, my routine thinking it “I won’t go out, I won’t get out with these people, I won’t go do drugs tonight,” and I still did. I would Valium and different medicines to try and put me to bed so I would sleep and not go anywhere. I got where I would get up and wouldn’t be aware of it, and put my clothes on and leave home, and wake-up 2 or 3 days later somewhere else. I didn’t know which way to turn. One night I had been gone 2 or 3 days, and I remember the sun coming up, and I felt so bad. I said “I have to go home and face my wife.” I had an idea what to do, I said “I’m just gonna kill myself. There’s no way out of this, I’ll never get off of this.” I had seen this sign it was rehab one time, it just came to my mind. I went home after a long discussion with my wife I had decided to go to rehab because I knew I had a problem. So I went there, and after a couple of weeks of them trying to get me off of the drugs. My minds clear enough to start going to meetings at AA, Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Start talking about a higher power, I remember thinking to myself “We’ll you know that’s not a far stretch to know that there’s someone smarter than I am. I was the dumbest person in the world; I thought I was the strongest; I just destroyed my life. I could be so far ahead of where I am now, and now you know I’m ready to kill myself. So I got down on my knees and I said “God if your real I’m gonna die. You’re the only hope that I have I’ve tried everything else, if you’re real I have got have some help, but you’ve got to show me something. I just can’t go on a word of what people tell me, or what I read. I’ve got to see something real to know that you’re in my life.” I prayed like for 3 days and nights, off and on that same prayer. February 17th this one night I woke up about 3:00 in the morning, and I’m not really sure how it happened, I remember looking up and the whole room was completely white, like clouds were in the room. This person was standing over the bed, and to me He looked like when I was a little boy I saw pictures of Jesus He had His robe on. He had a blue robe with a white belt tied around Him. His hands were sticking out towards me, and He just looked at me and it was over with. I prayed and I went back to sleep for an hour or two. I woke up and I didn’t know what was going on. I went outside, I went through the door, I saw a tree and it was like I had never seen anything before. The trees looked different everything looked different around me. I started thinking about cocaine, about drugs. I got sick, I got nauseated, and I wanted to throw up. God delivered me of it right then of the alcohol and the drugs.

Sid: Clarice tell me what it was like when your husband told you for the first time what had happened to him.

Clarice: Well I got a call from him, and he was not able to call me. He said “I want you to bring me a Bible.” I said “A Bible?” He did, he said “I need to talk to you.” So I went down that weekend, and I took him a Bible. He told me what happened. I was just blown away I just could not believe that’s just how it happened. I still hung onto that prophecy that I had. To me at that time when I received it it was so far out there that I didn’t ever see how it could come to pass because my husband would not speak to a Christian. He did not want to be around them, and he did not go to church. I said “God how are you going to save him?” He did, He did just what He said He would do. He had a divine visitation from God. It miraculously just changed his life, and mine as well.

Sid: Well you were just getting by because you were doing most of the work in the restaurant from what he told me. It seems as though the flood-gates of heaven opened over both of you, and you were blessed in everything you touched, especially in the business arena. What was going on

Clarice: It was as dry as it could be. You know when Ronnie got his head straight, and we got our life together straight, and we started going to church together, and listening to the word of God. Getting ahold of the word, where we need to tithe, and we started doing that. A guy came to our church, I never forgot this, and he told us “You pray for God to give you ideas in business.” Ronnie caught hold of that word and he just started praying for ideas. He just started changing things in the restaurant, and it just started changing overnight. It was wonderful and it has been good ever since.

Sid: According to my notes it was better than wonderful, you had 2 yachts, 4 planes, an estate, your business was doing wonderful. Clarice you even opened up a boutique

Clarice: I did, and we did that in 85. We built a shopping center, and I opened up a boutique and God’s blessed us there.

Sid: And everything is going so fantastic Ronnie, but then I’m going to speed you forward a bit to May 8, 2000. What was going on in your life Ronnie?

Ronnie: Well I was at the restaurant it was on Sunday night the year 2000, and we had closed. I had started home and my home was like 12 miles from the restaurant. My wife was in New York, she had gone on a buying trip for the clothing store. I drove through an intersection and I don’t remember what happened. They told me this drunk driver was going like 80 mph, and he ran through a stop sign and hit me in the driver’s door. He hit me with such force that he broke the seatbelt from the back of the seat and threw me the passenger window. The car rolled, it was an SUV, and it rolled over and stopped on its side right before it rolled over on top of me. My neck was broken, my leg was crushed…

Sid: It sounds to me like it was a miracle that it didn’t roll on top of you, and that would’ve been the end of Ronnie.

Ronnie: Absolutely it was.

Sid: What stopped that car from rolling over on you?

Ronnie: Well I imagine it was the angels stopping it.

Sid: Well that it was I would believe too. Clarice what did the doctor say about your husband, what chance did he of surviving?

Clarice: Well at the beginning he had a fairly good chance because they didn’t know everything that was wrong with him because him; yes he did have his neck broken in 2 places, and he had all the damage to his stomach and liver, and spleen and all of that. His leg was broken in 15 places, but they thought that he would survive it. Then after 7 days of being in the hospital Ronnie got progressively worse. They said to me you know he got irrational. I would be talking to him, and he would make good sense then all of a sudden he would not make any sense. Finally I said “There is something wrong, somebody has got to do something.” It was Mother’s day Sunday morning, and I had dosed very early that morning, and I just woke up and Ronnie is out of the bed with this halo on and he is going home. I knew something terribly was wrong, so I immediately called the nurse and I said “You have to get the doctor in here, something is wrong.” They wanted to tell me Ronnie had brain damage, but I would not accept that. They finally got a doctor there and he came in and I said “Somebody’s got to an MRI, a CAT scan or something.” They said “Well we did that,” but they finally did another one. When they did the doctor comes running down the hall, he says “We’ve got an emergency; we’ve got to operate on him right now. He has a crack in his intestines and he is septic. His whole body is being poisoned and he will not make it unless we do the surgery.

Sid: Listen the results were even worse after the surgery.

Sid: We want everyone everywhere to have the same passion for the Lord that my guests have. My guests are prophetic, and they have an anointing that others can move in the prophetic. Ben and Brenda Peters, I’m speaking to them at their home in South Beloit, IL. I have Brenda on the telephone, and Brenda you move in such accurate and wonderful gifts of words of knowledge, and prophecy. I want to find out what you feel… your husband told me what his turning point was, but your turning point it appears to me was when you spent time going to one place every day for a couple of hours. If I remember right you said you were just soaking and worshipping in the presence of beautiful worship music, and just being still before God. Being still is that important?

Brenda: That’s very important because all of us have backgrounds where we have issues of fear, panic attacks; often times people have fear of being in front of the public. And God was asking me to stand in front of people and encourage them with His heart. I knew that I had to hear from the heart of God, it couldn’t be everything that I had learned and studied about the Bible. It had to be the heart of God because people know the difference. So…

Sid: Now what would you say to someone that says “Well for the last year I’ve been spending an hour, or half hour everyday being still before God just soaking in His presence, and He hasn’t told me anything. Should I just quit?”

Brenda: No you should begin to ask Him, ask Him for a word every time you come in front of a person. You should begin to say “God what do you want to say to this person?” We often times just don’t give Him the opportunity to speak and we’re His vessels that He wants to speak through. So it’s actually an opportunity every time you meet somebody; walking on the streets everywhere you go. Say God “What do you want to say to this…”

Sid: Does it have something to do with the scripture that says “You have not because you ask not?”

Brenda: Definitely.

Sid: Tell me some experiences that you’ve had as a result of spending quality time with the Lord.

Brenda: I’d like to backup first. Before we started full-time in the prophetic and that was… I have a daughter at that time who was 16. She was actually very sick having an asthmatic attack. We brought her home, and when she got home her lungs collapsed. As we were getting her out to the car preparing to race to the hospital I began to call out the prophetic. The Holy Spirit began to remind me of prophetic words that had been spoken into her life over the years, and I began to speak those words into her life in between resuscitating her. She also had a cardiac arrest; we didn’t get to the aide car for about 10 minutes, but the prophetic words were calling down from Heaven her destiny refusing the death experience that was taking place. She was gone by the time we got her to the hospital, but God sent her back as I was crying out to Him and praying. That triggered a new level of understanding in my heart that if I would go after more of the presence of God if I would call down and use the authority that was given to me as his daughter that I could bring to life others in different ways as well.

Sid: I would like you to put your husband Ben back on for a moment.This is Ben Peters and Ben I’m wondering if you do the same thing your wife does and that is spend quality time, I know that you did this in college, but do you still spend time in God’s presence and tell me about it.

Ben: We try to live in His presence and give the moments that God gives us like most people…

Sid: Out of curiosity is it possible to live in that tangible presence 24-7?Is it possible?

Ben: Oh yes, oh yes He’s always there we just…

Sid: Well I know He’s there, but I know when I consciously or sometimes His Spirit will come on me but like for instance when I speak I could be sick; I could have a pain in my body and when I’m in that tangible presence I am not sick, when I’m in that tangible presence I do not have a pain in my body.  So my peanut brain logic says “If I could be in that presence 24-7 good-bye doctors.”

Ben: Yeah ha-ha, yeah that’s good logic, that’s good logic I agree with that.  It’s easier said than done of course.He’s always there He’s available and He really wants us to…

Sid:Okay, I want you to be a coach right now; I would like you to coach me and everyone that is listening, but let’s start at basics.  Everyone has to start somewhere, someone that doesn’t experience the presence of God give us some advice coach.

Ben:  Okay I love that one scripture in Proverbs “In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path.”  And we use the word acknowledge often in a public setting as somebody comes in that’s well-known and we’re having a meeting someone would say I’d like to acknowledge the presence of so and so.We say who they are, we acknowledge that they’re with us and we tell a little bit about them.  And when we acknowledge the Lord in all of our ways wherever we are whatever we’re doing we’re acknowledging that He is with us and we’re saying who He is.  And when we say to Jesus “You’re with me, thank You and You are Lord, You have control, You have the right to tell me what to do.  You have the right to put thoughts in my mind; You have the right to direct me in my day and steps.”  And He says “Trust in Him with all your heart and lean not on your own understandings.” which is a cerebral thing that you were talking about earlier.  But if we acknowledge Him that He is the Lord and He will be there and He will guide our steps and we will hear His voice, we acknowledge that He is the God that speaks; He’s the God that loves to communicate with His people; He hasn’t changed, Jesus is the same, the Father’s the same.  He’s a communicating God He created us for fellowship and what kind of fellowship happens without communication?

Sid:Let me take you back to when you were in Bible school and you were getting up 2 hours early. You were even missing breakfast, if the Lord didn’t release you and His presence was so strong. Did you ever miss a class because of this?

Ben:No, I don’t remember missing classes, but I did go to extra prayer meetings; because when I’d leave that place the joy of the Lord would flood me even as I’d been filled with weeping all of a sudden joy flooded my soul and I walked through the rest of the day kind of like floating on Cloud 9 as they say. I’d look for prayer meetings. We were involved in prayer bands. The first prayer band I chose was my first quarter in Bible school was the Middle East. Which is interesting because we now have more interests in the Middle East and Israel than we’ve ever had before.And…

Sid: The Bible’s real clear that Israel will be front and center stage, and be a problem for the whole world in the last days. So…I mean everyone sees what’s going on.

Ben:SoI would go not only to our prayer band, but I’d go to prayer bands that were taking place at different times of the day. I’d go to every prayer band that I could go to. I was in prayer…

Sid:Did you have time for anything else besides school and prayer? Well there was a young woman named Brenda of course.

Ben:She was hungry for more of God. She hadn’t known much about church and about God before then. She’d been taken to a Baptist church and got saved there, and with influence of Billy Graham on TV. She didn’t know that much about the Holy Spirit, and she was hearing something’s about healing and the Holy Spirit. We connected, and I was so full and she was so hungry I was just pouring into her and our dates were Bible studies and prayer meetings. It was pretty awesome; it was really reallyspecial. Then God began to speak to me, and the way I started to hear God’s voice was through the Bible itself. God would take a scripture and He’d bring it to life and speak to me and one morning I was in my prayer time Brenda had shared some burdens, and I was praying for her and I opened the Bible I asked God to speak to her and give her something from the Word and the verse that my eyes fell on was “She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.” And it was like the Holy Spirit said she’s the one and up until then you know I didn’t know I just thought…

Sid:But she knew the moment she looked at you she told me yesterday.

Ben:Yes, that’s right so…

Sid:But she operates in different gifts than you; you operate primarily in God speaking to you through the word; she has visions if you will.

Ben:   Right, right we both exercise prophetic gifts, but hers flows in a way that mine doesn’t.  I respond to the scripture where Paul told Timothy, stir up the gift that’s in you which was giving you at the laying on of hands in prophesy and so on.  So when I have an opportunity I’m asking God to “Stir it up Lord stir it up.”Then He gives me something.  He gives me a word, a vision or something that I can feed into their spirit and that’s a powerful thing.Brenda’s anointing is much stronger in this area where she walks into a room and she starts to sense things and feel things and see things; and she gets this burden within her that she has to release it.  It’s like the prophets in the Old Testament they say “Your word is burning in my bones up you know and I had to release, I could not be silent” that’s how she operates.

Sid:  I asked Brenda this question I want to ask you this question.  Do you believe everyone that is a believer can prophesy?

Ben:  Everyone can hear God voice everyone can prophesy. Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice.  And Paul said “You may all prophesy one by one that all may be encouraged and all may learn.” Yes I do everyone has the potential; some will take it to higher levels than other and their definitely different levels of prophetic ministry.  But at the least we can receive a burden for someone and let them know that we have a burden for them that God gave to us and we’re praying for them.  Or we may just feel like their having a hard day or something like that.As we develop as we’re faithful with what God give us God will give us more.  The very important thing is that we minister out of a pure spirit and a pure heart not with ideas of showing off our gift, but with idea of this is part of the Body of Christ, or this is one that needs to be part of the Body of Christ.They need to know that God loves them.  And so we’re asking and listing for God’s voice and listening…

Sid:   Ben I’m sorry we’re out of time we’ll pick up right here on tomorrows broadcast.

Sid:Jesus is coming back sooner than most of you think and that’s why I have Bill Salus on the telephone because he has spent 11 years researching and he has literally discovered the missing piece of end-time Bible prophecy.  We have his brand new book just off the press and three DVD’s teaching on this.  Bill while you were studying the revelation and it was revelation it wasn’t natural.  The revelation of Psalm 83 which perfectly describes the next Middle East war they discovered something that has been dubbed the Irish Dead Sea Scrolls.  Explain that.

Bill:   Well, yes absolutely in the summer of 2006 Sid was a very prophetic year we had a discovery of an ancient parchment in Irish bogswell, bogswell is muddy soil.What it was it was, there were several Psalms but it was very dilapidated and scarcely salvageable and they were in a museum, but one Psalm was salvageable.  It was unblemished and it was open in place; it had been buried Sid we believe for about a 1000 to 1200 hundred years in this Irish bogs well.  And what it was…

Sid:But wait a second a piece of scroll buried over a 1000 years in this type of environment; it shouldn’t have even been paper anymore.

Bill:  Well, that’s true and this was not an archeological dig with tooth brushes this was a construction worker with bulldozers.That in itself should have destroyed anything in its tracks.  But this was an amazing situation and you had headlines coming out of the Washington Post going “Israel mourns Hezbollah exalts.”  And so all of a sudden I’m thinking what is that they’re finding this bog.  Associated Press said “It’s an ancient book of Psalms found in an Irish bog,” and at the same time there’s newspapers coming around about Israel and this war with Hezbollah headlines because they were involved in a 34 day conflict. And right in the middle of the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah here comes this Psalm discovery and what’s amazing about that Sid is that it’s the only place in over 31,000 verses in the Bible where you can find Hezbollah and Israel involved in a war and that’s in Psalm 83…

Sid:And you’re just getting the revelation of Psalm 83 when all this explosive Irish Dead Sea Scrolls occur.

Bill:  Well, that’s the other thing too is that Psalm 83 as far as finding commentaries that were written about the prophetic aspects of Psalm 83 were pretty much nonexistent they were hard to find that’s why it took me eleven years of research to really get the this book that you’re offering right now.  And so what was amazing to me is that the Lord put it on my heart to write about Psalm 83 that I believe was an imminent prophesy for our time probably the next Mid East news headline and at the same time there’s a war going on and Psalm 83 shows up miraculously in Irish bogswell.  It couldn’t be the worst kind of soil in the world to find it show up it may as well just showed up in the middle of the…

Sid:And it mentioned all of the key players that are it looks to me like are ready to implement this.  Give me a brief synopsis of the scenario of Psalm 83; and by the way when you talking about Hezbollah when Psalm 83 talks about the inhabitance of Tyre who is that?

Bill:  Well, that’s the key here Sid is understanding who these players are, who these participants are that would really more than likely be Hezbollah.  What I think I’ll do is I’ll take the liberty of it’s as if Asaph who wrote the Psalm 3000 years ago was with us today in this interview.  I’m going to take the liberty and the vernacular of telling you who I think he would be describing in this prophesy which is clearly not found fulfillment yet and I found out why in the book you’re offering.  Who he was talking about at the very lead position and he goes through and gives us an order of who these populations are in verses 6-8 of Psalm 83.  We also have to start “Well, whose he saying is first?”  Because some of this of first a population listed first is sort of the star of the show like the credits of a movie at the end always list the top actor.  And he’s starting with the Palestinian refugees.He’s talking about their plight, he actually calls them a tents of Edom that’s a refugee position.  So he has Palestinian refugees very distinct, he’s got the Saudi Arabians in here.  He’s got the Southern Jordanians he has both the southern and central and north Jordanians so Jordan’s involved.  He’s got Egyptians involved, so Egypt.  I’m going to keep going with who it is but we should begin to notice here Sid is that I’m talking about the Arab populations that are all predominately Muslim that share common borders with Israel.  I’m talking about the Arab states and their terrorist organizations within those Arab states.  You have the Hamas, you have the Hezbollah, you have the Lebanese, you have the Muslim Brotherhood.  So in review Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Northern Iraq should be involved, Egypt Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas Lebanon, I mean the Hezbollah.So I believe is involved in this war and I’ve done some real serious research and on the maps when you look at the Old Testament maps and the ancient maps this is where they end up today.

Sid:Now how in the world can these Arab nations that seem to never get along seem to fight everyone else, seem to fight themselves, seem to fight one another; how could they ever do what Psalm 83 says, unify?

Bill: Well, we’ve already seen that inkling toward that since Israel became a nation in 1948.  It’s amazing to me Sid that after 1878 years in thediaspora when in 70 AD the Jewish dispersion started; and then in May 14, 1948 when Israel becomes rebirthed as a nation especially after coming out of a Holocaust attempt by Hitler.The Jews coming back into the land should have been given banners and balloons.  But what did they get, they got bullets and bombs and this ancient Arab hatred was alive and well and most of these populations that I just listed to you even though some of those terrorist organizations came on the scene subsequently they were involved.  That attitude was there they did not want the Jews back in that land over there.  Now they all got there statehood after World War I and World War II, but no we don’t want Israel to have a statehood in the midst of that Mid East land. And so we and you know what do we see right now, we see that your right the Arabs used to fight against the Arabs more than the Arabs use to fight against the Jews.  And the Persians used to fight against the Arabs; and there’s all this history that goes back and forth with all of these wars, but Islam came a long in the 7^th century AD and it united, it started to unite those populations with similar common holy practices and holy days and so they’re united.  And a matter fact they’ve never been more united, the President of Egypt Mohammed Morsi, and his Muslim Brotherhood they want to form a United States of the Arabs.  You saw recently that just before the elections when our presidential elections you saw our embassies across North Africa and the Middle East being attacked, I mean all the way from Libya Egypt to Tunisia by Iran, Yemen, Qatar twenty different countries all upset about some video or whatever you want to put it on.  They were Islamically driven united countries that used to war against each other and they’re attacking the America Embassies.What does that tell you Sid coming into the next four years that we got ahead of us?

Sid:It does not look good, now let me ask you this I noticed a pattern.  When there are wars in the Middle East Israel never starts it the Arabs’ start it.  Israel always finishes it, Israel always wins it, and Israel always ends up with more land than before it started.  It’s an amazing pattern.

Bill:  Well it is and you know Sid I point out in the book, and some of the DVDs your offering, that today’s Israeli Defense Forces actually exist in fulfillment of Bible prophesy; and I pinpoint why.  Because when we study end times Bible prophesy we don’t see the Israeli Defense Force as showing up in a lot of different places.  We see the Lord for instance stopping a massive invasion of Russia and a coalition in Ezekiel 38.  We don’t necessarily see the Israeli Defense Forces there.  And I can go through a whole list of things and I do in the book.  But what we do see is the Israeli Defense Forces fighting off these Arab countries in the end times and that’s the point I make and Ezekiel 37: 10 says “Israel will have an exceedingly great army.”  And I point out the numerous passages where they show up in defending the nation and your right they’ve even made a commitment that’s their policy they won’t be the first one to launch a weapon of mass destruction in the Middle East but they do have a Samson option.  In other words their military thinking at this point is we are not going to have a Masada complex we are going to have a Samson option and I don’t feel we know what that mean but it’s a strong response option is what it is.  It’s a matter of survival for them.

Sid:Yes, but what if they’re going to be number two in response then what happens if Iran nukes them, they won’t be able to respond.

Bill:  Well, I think Israel is on the precipice of having to do something about Iran’s nuclear program which I believe is possibly another prophecy I mean this is how detailed Bible prophecy can be I pointed it out in the book.  Iran has a double jeopardy in the end times; a lot of people recognize Iran under the banner of Persia, ancient Persia is involved in that Ezekiel 38 war with Russia and Iran and Turkey and Libya and there’s9 populations that he speaks.  But they also show up under..

Sid:Woops I tell you I’m so intrigued by what you’re saying time has just slipped away Bill.

SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with the Meisners. And I’m really, I don’t know about you, audience, I am blown away with our God and what He has done. But you know, we’re human and there is a forgiveness that has to occur. How in the world did you two first forgive and then love? Because without the forgiveness there can’t be the transparent love that you have.

BOB: I wish I could say it was overnight and it was just a prayer. But there was so much wounding and hurt that goes on. And so I want to bring hope to people, you know, that God has you on a journey to wholeness, and to know His love then you are able to express His love.

AUDREY: And Jesus just so much wants us to be, as Bob said, whole and free. And for me, everyday was repentance. I would repent in layers and I wanted to hate what I had done. And that was a process of years. A couple years though after Robert was born, I had a supernatural experience. I was at my parents’ home and there was a couple there, and after dinner I asked them to pray for me. And they said, “Sure, we’ll pray for you.” And when they did they said, “We sense that you have acute grief, and that’s just not a sadness, Audrey, because you’re not a sad person. But this is something, you have experienced a death or a loss and as a result grief has been locked into you. Would you like us to pray for you?” And I said, “Yes, I don’t want to live with that.” And they said, “Do you know what in the world happened that you have this?” So I told them the story how I committed adultery and had this baby, and I had never really grieved, because I was trying so hard to be perfect and strong. And they said, “Tonight is your night.” And as they laid hands on me they said, “Do you believe that you deserve to forgive yourself?” And I said, no. They said, “Because Jesus lives in you, you don’t get what you deserve. You get what he deserves.” And I thought, wow. And I thought, what happened is they prayed, I tapped into that grief and it was like prison doors were opened, and I finally walked free out of that prison of grief, and I let myself cry and weep for the first and one of the last times. Because what happened after that is my eyes were closed. I saw myself, a vision of myself clothed in the most beautiful white glistening pure robe of righteous. And Jesus said, “Will you see yourself the way I say you?” And I said yes, and when I did, I received that robe. That cloak of shame I had been wearing was off in a minute. And my robe was slippery. And you say, what difference does it make? Up to the point I could feel people as if they had Sharpie markers writing X’s on me. Because my robe was slippery I was free.

SID: And one of the keys is, it seems like almost everyday you were praying to God, soften my heart.

AUDREY: Yes.

SID: What an important prayer to pray.

AUDREY: I believe that humility is so important to just say, God, I surrender my entire life, my healing and especially surrender my husband, because I felt responsible to fix him and make him better, somehow make up for what I had done wrong. But Jesus healed us in a much different way.

SID: So Bob, you were a victim. How did you become satisfied from being a victim?

BOB: Sid, you are so right. I was the victim. And that night when Audrey walked free the couple then looked at me and said, “Bob, can we pray for you?” I said, sure. And they said, “We sense that you have some issues of unforgiveness.” You think so? And they said to me, they said, “You’re not ready to receive, are you?” I said, “No because it’s not fair. How come she’s the one that has the affair and I’m the one that has kept our family together. How come she gets to experience breakthrough? How come she gets to experience the supernatural? How come she gets to go free and I have to carry the burden and the weight of this?” I wasn’t ready. The next day it troubled me that I would be in such a place that I would not be able to receive from God. The next evening I said, “Would you pray with me?” You see, anyone can do this. We don’t need somebody necessarily. But you see, God began the work in my heart two years prior of loving me. And that night He asked me, He says, “Bob, will you allow my love to be perfected in you, to run its full course in prayer?” I visited an image in my mind. Because in my mind, I mean, it was full of imaginations. I call them vain imaginations of exactly what took place. How many of these events was she a part of?

SID: This became a stronghold.

BOB: It was tormenting and it would send me into a depression. It would put me on a spin of anger and rage. But after two years I had learned to control it, and that will kill you. It will cause your body to become sick. But that night as I stood there and I forgave, and I forgave, I weeped and cried. And then the Lord said, “Will you allow my love to be perfect.” He showed me the image that I had created in my mind of the moment she became pregnant. I didn’t visit that one too often. But in that moment I stepped into that image and I gathered her back to myself. And I wrapped her in my arms and I opened my eyes, and I fell in her embrace, and it was over.

SID: You know, you two have developed such keys to help people. I wish we had the time to go over each one of the keys. Tell me one couple that comes to mind, Audrey, that you have helped, that makes it all worthwhile.

AUDREY: Well one couple came to one of our conferences and they got all the keys, and they implemented them. They became face to face again. They became knowing they could be irresistible to each other again. And afterwards, they said, “We were separated for eight months. We were signing our divorce papers next week, and we came here, and we are going to go home and tell our three little kids that our marriage is safe, and that we’re going to stay together.” And I said, “How in the world did you come to a marriage conference together? What led you to come here?” And she said, “Well I was listening to the Christian radio station and I called in, and I won free tickets, and I couldn’t resist something free.”

SID: Now that’s called a Holy Ghost setup. But I feel like the spirit of God has told me to warn you right now, stop. That imagination Jesus taught is as bad as committing the sin. Cut it out. Say out loud every time you’re tempted by that thought, “Blessed are the pure in heart.” That little leaven will leaven the whole loaf. You cannot use that vain imagination any more. God is telling me to tell you, stop it, in Jesus’ name.

Sid: I have to tell you I am so excited, I’m excited to get this into my hands this tool I’m going to talk about, but I think I’m even more excited to get it into your hands because it’s going to totally change your life.  You see my guest Dennis Clark right after he became a believer he had an encounter with God; and God said that He was going to teach Dennis how to pray.  Oh, wait a second you said that to God or God said that to you?

Dennis: He said it to me as a prompting like ask me to teach me how to pray.

Sid: But you thought you knew how to pray.

Dennis: Yeah, but I already thought I knew how.

Sid:  So why, but I did it anyway.

Dennis: I did it anyway.

Sid: I would do the same. Then God said to you something that you now know it’s true, but you didn’t know at that time.  And it’s true for everyone that’s a real believer, that’s the most amazing thing and God said to you.

Dennis: “I’m giving you My undivided attention.”

Sid:  How would you like God to say that to you? “I am giving you my undivided attention.”  Well, I can tell you for the next 30 days God almost dictated a course that allows you to have communion with God, to communion with Him 24-7.  Dennis I have to ask you this question, what is it like to be communing with God 7 days a week 24-7. What is it like?

Dennis: Well, obviously its bliss but it didn’t start that way; it started in a way that there was such a strong awareness to God that there was some things that I would pick up that weren’t godly that I didn’t want to know about.

Sid: What do you mean? I don’t understand.

Dennis: It was like I could feel other people’s hurts, I could feel their sorrow, their anger regardless of their body language and regardless of their words I could feel in the atmosphere the things that were not of God and I wrestled with it.

Sid:  And today you counsel and you told me when you have a husband and wife and their feuding and both tell their side sides of the story you know something beyond their words, what do you know?

Dennis: Correct it’s like what their spirit’s saying what they’re not saying; the emotional flavor of words tells you’re the source.  And if the source isn’t good you can tell what kind of not good that is because everything is compared to the presence of God.  And every nuance of any negative is based on knowing the nature of the legitimate.

Sid: So what you have found is most humans because of learned behavior are good actors and actresses and to cut through all of that you have to have the gift of discernment operating, that’s what you’re describing.  There was a woman that came to one of your meetings Dennis in 1997, this is an educated woman, she had a PhD, she was a psychologist, and she was a counselor and you had a really tough case of someone that walked up.  And she’s thinking to herself “I would have to have this woman in counseling for years before she would ever get better.”  And in a matter of minutes her life was transformed and she said, “I got to meet this guy Dennis because what he just did I want to find out how to do this.”  Now when she walked up to meet you at the end of the meeting did you have a clue that she was going to be your wife?

Dennis:  Yes.

 Sid:  Yes!  Oh come on now you know too much.

Dennis: I know, that was a season of total miraculous revelations coming from all different directions.

Sid: So this woman walks up and did you hear in the spirit that this is going to be your wife?

Dennis: Yes, yes I knew.

Sid:  I hope you were smart enough not to tell her that.

Dennis: Oh, I was.

Sid: (Laughing)

Dennis: But she saw that lady.

Sid:  Tell me what was wrong with that lady.

Dennis: That lady basically just had a meltdown it was a group of about 100 people and she just… people were praying and she just heard certain things.  From her point of view she had everything, I’ve got that spirit, I’ve got that and the next thing you know she’s writhing on the floor and so I said, “not to make a big scene here,” I just walked over and knelt down and I whispered and dealt with some emotional healing.  She was a believer I dealt some mental strongholds brought them down and some demonic deliverance, all within I would say less than a 20 minute period.  She stood up on her feet with a countenance change with a smile on her face and everybody was saying “We never saw anything like that, that’s fast.”  And that was I think Jennifer’s key to later say, “When we’re done I want you to pray for me.”  And that was a phrase that God had given me that said “You’re going to know your wife because she’s going to ask you to pray for…she’s going to pray for you and ask you to pray for her.”

Sid: And here’s the most wonderful thing what he’s about to tell you is that he did for the woman that became his wife everyone that takes this course can start moving in this realm.  It’s you know what it’s so easy I think we needed the devil to get us confused on walking in the presence of God 7 days a week 24-7.  When your wife, she wasn’t your wife yet, but when she asked you to teach me how to do this and then she had results what happened to her when you taught her how.

Dennis: When I taught her, well at first she says, “I already dealt with this, I already dealt with this,” and then she realized that there was a lot of turmoil on the inside of her that she really hadn’t dealt with as toughly as she thought.  She had prayed pray after me prayers but they didn’t all take.  And all of a sudden she recognized that in applying herself we would pray 20 minutes after work 4 to 5 days a week and in 2 months time people that knew her a lifetime could not believe the change.  That’s where we even said the 60 day challenge we call it because Jennifer was radically transformed in 60 days, she didn’t recognize herself.  Matter of fact she says “I can tell you stories of our ministries, but I am the story.”

Sid:  Now, are you finding that people that take your seminar or buy the tapes and the workbook without you being there are able to get the same types of results?

Dennis: Absolutely.

Sid: Tell me one person that comes to mind.

Dennis: That got the same results, just apart from that we’ve gotten people that…oh there was a Navy Seal out on the West Coast that when they opt out the hard difficult training they go in and the expression is they ring the bell, they say “I want out, I’m opting out.”  What I didn’t know is that sent them to the chaplain and the chaplain used our teaching and told him he says, and he came in and he says “That commanding officer had it in for me,” he said, “Close your eyes, who is the first person?”  He said, “My mother.”  And he forgave his mother and got dramatically healed and this chaplain was reading it off of a card.

Sid:  The thing that and I have to be candid I haven’t taken this course yet but I’m learning by just reading the book.  I’ve read the book and I’m looking forward to taking the course, but just reading the book it’s like just some paradigm changes that I’ve made in myself because it’s not that complex, I mean when someone goes through your course all of sudden they can operate in discernment.  And in this day and age we’re living in I don’t think people are going to make it without being able to know the difference between their mind and the flesh and the spirit.  And here’s the thing that’s so amazing to me, let’s take your wife, when she began to commune with God 24-7 she got healed of a number of conditions.  What was she healed of?

Dennis: The first one was… were lying in bed and she had I can’t remember the exact name attack arcadia or some sort that she had had for twenty some years where she took…

Sid: Heart condition.

Dennis:  Heart condition.

Sid:  Where probably the beat speeds up or is irregular.

Dennis:  If it doesn’t stop you just die there’s no cure and her late husband was a physician and he said, “I’ve never seen anything so bad.”  And she had to take Digitalis and if it ever started and even that didn’t guarantee.  And she have episodes from age 20 to age 50, she had episodes on a monthly basis.  We’re lying in bed and all of a sudden I could feel demonic fear in the room. Nobody said a word, I said, “Jennifer, what are you doing?”  She says, I’m having one of those episodes and I said, “Let’s receive.”  The fear in the room is tremendous, I said that it’s at demonic proportion it’s not soulish; it’s demonic.  So she received forgiveness right while she was having a heart palpitation “I receive forgiveness for allowing fear something God never gave me” and she got peace on the inside but felt fear all around her.  Let the perfect love of God from the inside cast that fear off and she did it; we’re talking 10 minutes and found out it’s been 15 years now she’s never had another episode again.

Sid: Now this is not unusual; what Dennis is explaining is once people get his teaching and basically this is not taught in most churches, why is this not taught in most standard teaching, standard discipleship in every church in the world?

Dennis: I think the number one thing is that we found that everything needs to start with the emotions, the emo-cognition, emo-volitions.  Those emotions control your thinking, those emotions control your…

Sid:  Woops we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on tomorrows broadcast Mishpochah.  But I want you to take this course, trust me on this; it is so life changing for you.

Sid Roth:  Now if you were to go in the average church of America and give them a test how many of you really and truly have intimacy with God?  I think you would find that in some churches 98% – 99% of the people would say no.  If you were asked how many of you hear God’s voice on a regular basis?  How many of you are like Jesus who said, “I only do what I see my heavenly Father doing; I only do what I see my heavenly Father doing.”  Very few, well I have a guest who teaches people on how to hear God’s voice and says it works 100% of the time.  His name is Mark Virkler and Mark my audience and myself we’re all ears because the whole purpose of life is to hear God’s voice and be obedient as far as I’m personally concerned.  Its Supernatural! And sometimes I say to God, “God, I don’t want this multiple guess work, I’m to pragmatic just tell me what to do and I’m going to do it.”  I’ve actually said that to God, does that sound familiar to you Mark?

Mark:  It sounds very familiar to me, and it lines up with my own frustration for the first eleven years of my Christian life I could not hear God’s voice.  And I had no idea why I couldn’t hear it and I was frustrated as could be and it was eleven years of complete frustration.

Sid:   Did you ever reach a point and there is a whole section of the Body of Messiah that’s reached a point where they’ve said, “I’ve tried and tried and I haven’t heard His voice, so I guess He just doesn’t do it that way anymore.”  Did you kind of justify your deafness?

Mark:  Well, I actually got saved in a church that told me “God didn’t do it that way anymore,” it said, “God doesn’t speak” and so I believed that initially.

Sid:  Well, why did you change your mind?

Mark: Well, my heart was hungry it said, “I want to experience God” and I ended up leaving that church and I joined a Spirit filled church that did experience God.  And I would ask them, I’d say “What does God really sound like?”  And well they’d say, “Well, they would just say that you just know, that you know, that you know.”  And I would just say, “Well, I don’t know that’s why I’m asking you.”

Sid Roth:  You know, there is so many books that the implication is that you know, that you know, that you know, but we really are not taught how to hear God’s voice.  That should be part of basic discipleship.

Mark:  Well, it should if anyone could define what His voice sounds like, you know.  I was listening inside for a voice because I assumed it would be a voice and I didn’t hear any voices.  All I heard inside was thoughts.  And I said, “Well, there is no voice here, and I said, “I’m not going to pretend there is a voice here because all that is inside of me a thought.

Sid:  And you must have thought that a lot of them were your own thoughts.

Mark:  Well, I thought that they were all my own thoughts; except I did accrue a few to Satan because they were pretty negative because I have some of Satan’s stuff some of mine.  But you know what?  It never crossed my mind hey, if Satan can talk to me as spontaneous thoughts that light up on my mind, I’ll bet when the Holy Spirit speaks to me it also sounds like spontaneous thoughts that light up on my mind.  I never said that to myself, well I finally learned.

Sid:  So, you go through the first eleven years of your life as a believer in this limbo, actually knowing there’s something more, but not being able to grasp it.  What changed this?

Mark:  Well, what changed is the thought came to me and said “Why don’t you spend a year of your life focused on learning to hear God’s voice?”  And I objected and said, “I don’t spend a year learning anything, I read a book in a week and go on to the next book.”  And I had a second thought say, “Well you’ve spent ten years in defused time for you didn’t get through, if you spend one year in focus effort and got through would be the best year of your life.”  And I said, “Good point.”  So I decided to risk one whole year learning one lesson which was how to hear God’s voice.

Sid:  Out of curiosity what did your wife think of this thing of taking a year off?

Mark:  Well, that was okay I mean I would still pasture a church and preaching and reading my Bible and income and so I was still doing a job.

Sid:  Okay, so this is your goal tell me what it was like, “What did you do first?”

Mark:  Well, focus effort for me means for every extra hour during the week I have I will focus on trying to learn this.  So I read everything in the Bible on hearing God’s voice, I read every book on prayer I can buy, I experiment with hearing God’s voice, I go to conference on hearing God’s voice.  And that year God taught me four very simple things which opened up His voice in two way prayer where I could write out a page or two of what God was saying to me and what I was saying back to Him.

Sid:  Now you’ve literally had God speak to you in an audible voice and give you directions, what did He say?

Mark:  Well, the only time I’ve actually heard Him an audible voice was when I woke up in the middle of the night with a audible voice saying, “Get up saying I want to teach you to hear My voice.”  And I laid back down and said, “You can teach me in bed.” He said, “No, get up.”  And so I got up, went over to my office which is next to the parsonage and I sat down and I began to journal and that’s when the first time that I really learned to hear His voice which normally for me comes as spontaneous thoughts that light up on my mind when my eyes are fixed on Jesus.

Sid:  You know for myself, I have heard God’s audible voice, but it’s been so infrequent it’s almost like, “God, why do You wait so long in between with Your audible voice?”  I mean I have to tell you, that I know that God speaks through our thoughts, but I’m so pragmatic I just wish it was audible all the time. – Its Supernatural.

Mark:   Well, I think we all do and I think we all have the same frustration you have and which I have.  And I think I’ve heard God’s audible voice once, “You can’t build an intimate love relationship with one conversation.”  I mean I hear my wife’s voice everyday and God wants to speak to you and I every day, that’s what the Garden of Eden was all about; walking with God in the cool of the day.  So every single day we can hear God’s voice and since I learned these four keys I’ve been able to hear God’s voice every single day and write out a page or two or more of what God is saying to me.  And you can too and every single listener can, I promise they can.  Ha-ha.

Sid:  And now to me, I can’t picture any true Bible believer that would not give anything to be able to hear God’s voice every single day.  But I have to ask you, how do you know that its God’s voice verses your thoughts or the Devil?

Mark:  Well, there’s a couple of really easy things to do the Bible says that “Every Rhema, attest to all things, hold fast to what is good, and in the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact.  And the word in the Greek is “Every Rhema is established.”  So a Rhema word is a spoken word, when God speaks into your heart what I teach people to do and what I do is I take it to my two or three spiritual advisors and I say, “Here’s what I felt God was saying to me, does your heart bear witness this came from God?”  And if my three spiritual advisors say “Yes Mark, I think that’s God.”  Then I’m willing to say that’s God, because it’s confirmed the way that God told me to confirm it, which wasn’t in the brilliance of my brain, it was by the mouth of two or three witnesses.  So I encourage everyone establish two or three spiritual advisors, take your journaling to them, particularly for the first few days.  I mean the first day I journaled I took it to my wife, after half hour of writing and I said, “Patti would you read this and she read this?” And she read it and I said “What do you think?”  And she said, “Well, I believe that’s God” and I said, “Really” and she said, “Yes,” and my faith leapt and I went back and journaled  thirty more minutes and I took that to Patti and she said, “I believe that’s God too and my faith leapt again.  And I went back and journaled thirty more minutes and I took it to Patti and she minutes and I took it to Patti and she said, I believe that’s God” and my faith leapt again.  I spent five hours that first day I learned to hear God’s voice I spent five hours writing down what God was saying to me and having it confirmed by one of my spiritual advisors every thirty to sixty minutes.  So that’s the best way that I know is to have it bounce it off from two or three spiritual advisors, of course you know that it has to line up with the Word of God, it has to be full of the Spirit of God; love, joy, peace, mercy, faith.  It’s got to be full of that and your heart you know should be comfortable and true and if I get a spontaneous thought that came when my eyes were not fixed on Jesus then I will go ahead and I’ll test it bay fixing my eyes on Jesus, presenting that spontaneous thought to Him.  And I’ll see if in the picture if He looks uneasy like He wants to move away and if He wants to move out of it and edge out of the scene and then it’s an indication that the thought didn’t really come from Jesus.

Sid Roth:  Now itt seems to me that we in the west are the decided disadvantage as opposed to people in the east, why is it so hard for us here in the west?

Mark:  Well, we’ve been influence in 1200 AD with rationalism which swept through the European Universities and it’s swept into our culture and it’s the God that we worship, everything must funnel through my little reasoning brain.  And I looked up every verse in the Bible on reason you know and I’ve found God never even told me to reason.

Sid:  Sometimes I wish that I didn’t have a brain and I could just live 100% out of my spirit, wouldn’t that be wonderful?

Mark:  Well, it would then you know…

Sid:  You know my spirit knows everything, my pea brain knows only what I put into it.

Mark:  Well, that is the exact truth and when you teach this to kids, like in Sunday school they can all do this effortlessly, quiet themselves down, fix their eyes on Jesus.

Sid:  You mean become like a little child like Jesus said?

Mark:  You know that’s what Jesus said and you know what I tell people that when you are there with Jesus in a vision why don’t you picture yourself as an eight year old kid.  I tell them that every weekend when I go out and teach, because if you picture yourself as an eight year old kid it takes you out this adult frame work; it takes you back to your childhood and lets you approach God as your suppose to and your brain is out of the way.

Sid Roth:  The middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile, praise God it’s finally come down to form what Paul calls in the 2^nd Chapter in the books of Ephesians “The Full dwelling Place of God by His Spirit.”  And that’s where we’re headed right now, but between today and the time the Messiah comes we know from the Bible what’s going to happen.  But we as believers I believe it should not be such a big mystery that as true believers in the Messiah we should understand the times and seasons that we’re in.  And I have a friend that’s a Messianic Jewish Rabbi by the name of Jonathan Cahn and several years ago he had some supernatural experiences and he’s a brilliant Bible teacher.  And he has come up with an understanding of a pattern from the Old Testament that God used with Israel and it’s so amazing it’s even got dates and times and the deeper in God in this the more he saw that it is a pattern for the United States of America.  Here let me read from the front page of our newsletter for those that receive our Mishpochah newsletter.  “Is it possible that there exists an ancient mystery in which is hidden the secret of America’s future?”  “Is it possible that this possible lies behind everything from 9/11 to the war in Iraq; to the American housing bubble and it’s bursting to the crash of Wall Street and the global economy to the great recession and much more; even the President of the United States.”  Strap on your seatbelt we’re about ready to go for a ride.  Jonathan you know that I have wanted to interview you on this subject for a long time and you kept say, “It’s not quite the right time.”  Why did you keep saying that to me?

Jonathan:  I just, I just felt that there was a time when this word was going to go forth and it’s almost as if the word is always sought to go forth, it tends to become viral when I bring it up.  But I felt like it wasn’t the time and then things started changing and I have no question right now that this is the time.  And just when I was kind of moving ahead or praying about that I get a call I get a call from your ministry saying, “Hey let’s do the Harbinger.”  So I believe that your lead by the Spirit Sid, because that’s, I believe that this is the time.  We are approaching the tenth anniversary of 9/11 and America is fastly, or rapidly moving away from God; and this is a serious you know call, but it is something that; everything in God has an appointed the time.  He kept giving me the scripture you know. “The vision is for the appointed time,” You know write it down and it will go and now it’s just happening. – Its Supernatural.

Sid:  I believe that also so let’s start out the series and there’s two CD series that we are making available and one is called “Harbinger, the Warning” and the other is called “The Harbinger, the Shaking.”  And let’s start out with the word “harbinger.”  What does that mean to you?

Jonathan:  The Harbinger means a sign, a herald of what is yet to come.  It can be used in a good sense; but generally harbinger is generally it’s a sign of warning.   And why this links up is that God gives harbingers a warning before judgment.  You know and a good God would do that and the sake of the warning is so that there won’t be judgment.  Isn’t that correct?

Jonathan:  Exactly, exactly and He did that in ancient Israel, which is really which is really the pattern which gives us really the revelation of what is happening now.  But exactly, God’s ultimate purpose is to save from judgment.

Sid:  But I don’t believe you could have come up with this key if you hadn’t seen what happened at 9/11.

Jonathan:  Yes, exactly.

Sid:  So therefore, no one could have unlocked this before 9/11, I believe.

Jonathan:  I believe you’re absolutely right and it’s not that, you know there was things that I sensed with 9/11 came you know our ministry is in Northern Jersey were near everything.  We have people in the building at the time who got out, but you know it was a sense in America that something had happened.  There was a sense among believers that there was something deeper going on and America has been – was not right with God and there’s something for this to even be allowed, you know it means something and this is the same pattern.  Actually at that time there was a scripture that came to me and I didn’t realize it back then, but it was right – it turned out to be really one of the keys of the puzzle piece.  And I was down there in ground zero, you know a little bit after and I’m walking the ground and I saw an object it was linked to a tree and something started and mystery started unfolding.

Sid Roth:  You know I recently had lunch with a strong Christian believer and he looked me in the eye and he said, “I’m very concerned about Israel, look at Iran, and their nuclear ability and the missiles they have.”  But I said to him, “I’m not concerned about Israel, I am concerned about the United States of America.”  I see the future of Israel in the Bible, and I don’t and maybe you are one that would differ with me, but I don’t see a locked in concrete future for the United States in the Bible; I’m concerned about the United States.

Jonathan:  Well, well I believe that you are right, you know, clearly, you know there is two main things going on.  America has been blessed more than any nation has been blessed and there’s two things of it.  One is that as much as it follows God, “As a nation follows God it gets lifted up.”  We’ve been blessed from the beginning, even the early founders of America, the Puritans.  They said this was going to happen and it’s happened, but if America turns from God those blessings are not going to remain.  And the other thing is; “As America has been the greatest blesser of Israel and the principal is clear from the beginning of the Bible to the end that if you bless Israel you’re blessed, if you turn away you will not be blessed.”  And both of those factors are changing now and so we are in danger.  And the other thing is when you look at end time prophecy you don’t see America as the leader, it says all nations come against Israel.  Something has to happen between now and then and I believe you are absolutely right.

Sid:  Okay, the word harbinger as you’ve explained means “A sign or a foreshadowing of a future event” and you have found in the scriptures. “Nine harbingers,” explain what you mean.  Because if these things occurred in these steps and this is what happened in Israel then your premise is those same steps are going to happen in the country that God raised up to preserve Israel if they turn from God.

Jonathan:  Yeah, not that every situation is different, but the overall pattern is there, which is basically “A pattern of warning and coming judgment.”  Yeah, basically here’s the beginning of the key of the foundation of it.  Ancient Israel, 8th century BC Israel is founded by God or founded on His word; blessed by God, but then it departed from God.  They grew complacent they turned away from Him, they went to other gods; they turned against His ways into immorality, they actually then started coming against His people.  And now God calls them back, “He sends prophets and then He allows something to happen that was unprecedented, He allows Israel’s hedge of protection to be breached.  He allows and enemy to make a strike into the land,” and this is again as you said before, “This is not to bring judgment it is to warn of judgment,” and its wakeup call it’s an alarm.  And that’s strike, the enemy has come in; it’s temporary, it’s limited but it traumatizes the nation.  It was a sign and this is where were talking “it was a harbinger” that if the nation continues going away from God, departing from his ways it’s blessings, it’s peace, its prosperity, it’s safety it’s even defenses are going to be removed.  So the attack comes, it is short lived, but and this is the time to repent and to turn back and God gave them several years to turn back, but after a while it seemed that security had returned, but they were in danger and they didn’t realize it.  It was a grace period, the nation to choose God or to completely go away from Him and then judgment, but instead of repenting and turning to God they hardened themselves.  Israel becomes defiant they make a vow and this is going to be the key here, In Isaiah 9: verse 10 they say, and this is God telling through Isaiah; making it known what they did, they say this here is the verse, “It says, “The bricks have fallen, (that was the destruction) but we will rebuild with hewn stone the sycamores have been cut down, but we will plant cedars in their place.”  Now, it’s hard to say, “What’s that saying?”  It’s saying that you know, “No matter what God, no matter what He does to us were not going to be humbled; we’re not going to turn back; we’re just the opposite, we’re going to defy the judgment; we are going to fight back; we are actually going to turn the calamity around we are going to come back stronger than ever.  So they harden themselves and about ten years later after that first encouraging comes judgment of Israel, the same army reenters now but it’s not limited it’s a full strike and the ancient kingdom of Israel is wiped off the face of the earth.  Now what does that have to do with the last days of the ancient, what does that have to do with America?

Sid:  Right.

Jonathan:  You see and this is a specific pattern of judgment and the calling of God.  And the last days of a nation under judgment that doesn’t turn back.  So what does that have to do with America?  America was also founded on God’s principal, blessed as no other nation has been, turned away from God, has increasingly been turning from His ways, I think it’s obvious.  It’s become complacent and actually literally coming against the ways of God.  It’s rapidly so and God is calling America back; but what happened to ancient Israel?  God lifted up the hedge of protection; it was the wake up alarm so too God has lifted up the hedge of America’s protection.  The wakeup call September 11^th 2001 America’s hedge of national protection is removed just as it was in ancient Israel.  It’s a strike comes in, God allows an enemy to come and strike and breach the borders, its temporary it’s limited but…

Sid:  I mean, I remember where I was, I remember exactly watching the television screen and watching those planes go into the Twin Towers and it looked like fantasy to me!  It looked like it wasn’t real, this is America; this doesn’t happen in America, it only happens in the movies.

Jonathan:  Exactly, exactly.  And we’ve had this sense that we were invulnerable and we were invulnerable as long as we were in God’s way.  But if we are not it says, “Unless the Lord watches the city the watchman watch in vain,” and clearly God allowed it.  And this the same exact thing that happened to ancient Israel and so in the same way this is the time for America to come back.  If you remember Sid, at that time there was…

Sid:  You know we’re out of time right now, but I know that our Mishpochah will be back.  I have a saying which I got from a Messianic Jew by the name of Dick Reuben at the Brownsville revival.  He says, “When the pattern is right, the Glory comes down.”  But the reverse is also true, “When the pattern is wrong, the judgment is released. – Its Supernatural!.