Sid: My guest by way of telephone, I’m speaking to him from his home in Key Largo, Florida is RT Kendall. RT is former Senior Pastor of Westminster Chapel in London, England. He holds a PhD from Oxford University. And I’m interviewing him this week on a biggie one of the more important things that God wants you to conquer. And it’s called “Total Forgiveness.” Not forgiveness but “Total Forgiveness” subtitle “When Everything in You Wants to Hold a Grudge, Point a Finger and Remember the Pain God Wants You to Lay it all Aside.” Now on yesterdays broadcast I through a phrase for you to cogitate and meditate on and this phrase actually I was having breakfast with my wife Joy and she teaches women on subjects such as what we’re talking about this week and she said this statement to me which really got me thinking. She said “Unforgiveness keeps us from loving again.” We’re so interested in protecting ourselves that because we don’t want to be hurt you know we’re not stupid, we’re not masochists but we’re so interested in protecting ourselves that when we hold on to this unforgiveness and these grudges it keeps us from loving again. But then you know what it keeps us from receiving love because…you know RT there’s a sowing and reaping principal and we wonder why no one’s loving us well we’re so crippled that we can’t love others.

RT: Well I think in connection with what your wife said, and she’s right, the degree to which we don’t forgive is the degree we’re unable to love. And 1 John 4:18 says “Perfect love casts out fear.” Fear has to do with punishment and so we want to punish the people that’s just why we can’t forgive we want to see them punished and we want to take punishment upon our own hands and we want to do what God said He alone will do “Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.” But when we want to do it we’re taking over God’s job and that she’s right “Unforgiveness means that we cannot love.” But that we start forgiving then we start loving.

Sid: And you know in your book you say “Social scientists are discovering that forgiveness helps emotional and physical healings.” And I’m reminded when I read that I was recently at the Toronto Airport Church ministering and John Arnott told me a story I asked him “How come you’re having so many miracles here?” And he said “Sid the real secret is forgiveness.” I’ll tell you a story that there was a woman as child she fell off a horse the horse kicked her bucked her and she fell off the horse and she had back pains, excruciating pains her whole life and she would go to every healing line she could. She’d go to every top healing evangelist she could find – nothing. She’d to doctors, nothing doctors could do. So she was talking to John about this and John looked at her and said “Did you ever forgive the horse?” And she said “No.” And this is a true story and she forgave the horse, John prayed for her instantly healed.

RT: That’s amazing. I preached this sermon on “Total Forgiveness” in Melbourne, Florida about 2 months ago and the next day a lady came to me and said “I went forward last night when you preached your sermon in the middle of the night early this morning I was healed,” she said “Healed, the problems gone!” And it just shows what the Holy Spirit will do when He’s release to be Himself.

Sid: Let’s just review a little bit of what we’ve said today about “Total Forgiveness.”

RT: Well I’ve said mainly 2 things:

• We know we’ve totally forgiven when we stop telling people what they did to us
• We know we’ve totally forgiven when we will not let the people be afraid of us

You see God doesn’t want us to be afraid of Him He’s not given us a spirit of fear but His Spirit testifies when we cry “Abba Father.” He wants us to have intimacy with Him. And as long as we’re afraid of Him we cannot have that. And when people are afraid of us it’s because they think we want to hurt them. Joseph forgave his brothers and said “Come close to me.” And then then there’s the third thing Sid…

• It’s when we don’t those people to feel guilty

Joseph said “Don’t be angry with yourselves for what you did.” Now that’s amazing normally we want people to be very very very upset with what they’ve done and they say “Well I’ll forgive you when I think you’re sufficiently sorry. And one thing that I have people put to me all the time is “Well, how can you forgive them if they’re not sorry, surely they must repent first.”

Sid: They must practice penance.

RT: Yeah I say to them well if you are going to live under the Old Covenant fine it’s tit for tat, but when you take Jesus as your model it’s a whole new world. How many people do you think were repenting at the cross when Jesus said “Father forgive them they don’t know what they’re doing?” And I choose to make Jesus my model by the way Sid when people are sorry it takes little grace to forgive them but when they’re not sorry it takes a lot of grace to forgive them, and nobody was sorry at the cross that Jesus said “Father forgive them.” And one of the things I’ve observed perhaps you have as well most people that I have had to forgive in fact the people that I had to forgive that I have talked to you about a couple days ago when Joseph Zung said “RT you must totally forgive them” those people never felt that they did anything wrong I’m sure of it you could put them under a lie detector and they would feel “Why is RT worried about this?” Most people I have had to forgive they don’t feel they’ve done anything wrong and that’s what kind of hurts you think “Well they ought to know.” And for this reason I caution people, if you have now forgiven them don’t run to them and say “Guess what I forgive you for what you’ve done” because they are going to look at you and say “You’ve forgiven me for what? “Well you know what you’ve done. ‘Well you surely do.’ Well I’m sorry I don’t.” Well now you have a real fight on your hands, don’t go to them and say “I forgive you.” It’s got to happen in your heart and don’t wait them…don’t wait for them to repent chances are you’ll never have to forgive them if you go by that it’s got to happen in your heart.

Sid: Let me ask you a question “Let’s suppose that someone has wounded you deeply and you’ve wounded them deeply and you understand about forgiveness so the first thing you do is you go to them and you repent for having wounded them and ask them to forgive you, which they do. But then they don’t repent for what they’ve done to you, what do you suggest?”

RT: It’s their problem don’t let it be your problem.

Sid: What if it becomes your problem?

RT: Well then get over it!

Sid: (Laughing)

RT: You are required to forgive them and required to get over the self-pity. The only time ever, ever that you go them and say “I forgive you” it’s when they’re begging for it they’re dying for you to forgive them and they’ll be thrilled to hear. But 9 times out of 10 and that’s conservative I’ll say 99 times out of 100 the people I have to forgive they honestly do not believe they’ve done anything wrong at all. Which goes to show I’ve probably hurt people and I don’t know it, have you ever thought about that. There are probably people that have to forgive me and if they came to me and say that I’ve hurt them I would be astounded, I’d be shocked but I have and to them it’s very very real. And so in my own case when I have felt the people hurt me I don’t wait to see that they’ve done the wrong thing and are sorry I just forgive them and never let them know that it was a problem. Which brings me to the 4^th proof that we’ve totally forgiven:

1. That you don’t tell what they did
2. Won’t let them be afraid of us
3. Don’t let them feel guilty
4. Sid we let them save face

And you know what Joseph said to those brothers? He said “Don’t be angry with yourselves because it wasn’t you who sent me here it was God.” Amazing isn’t it.

Sid: You know what I found is is some of the worst situations that I have been in that the devil meant for evil God has actually used it for good.

RT: Exactly. Well if I’m allowed to say it I’ve written a book called “God Meant it For Good” and it is on the life of Joseph and I have dedicated that book to Joseph Zung that we’ve been talking about. The book “Total Forgiveness” is taking one chapter out of “God Meant it For Good” and making a whole book out of it because that was the part that most about in the book “God Meant it For Good.”

Sid: Now I’m reading quotes from “Who’s Who” of Christendom to people that are endorsing your book but I’m wondering if there’s one quick story that comes to mind about someone that’s either heard you speak or read this message and the effect it had on them.

RT: Well I’ve had more unsolicited letters than you can imagine of people saying “You’ve put my marriage back together.” I’ve had a pastor say that “My deacons now speak to each other.” I’ve had a situation where a pastor was reconciled to his congregation would never ever quote you know names or given give a hint but this book has been the nearest to performing the miraculous of any book than I have ever written. And that is simply because when we forgive the Holy Spirit is released to be Himself and this why people get healed, it affects your health, blood pressure will go down, in some cases arthritis if caused by holding a grudge. And you mentioned earlier that the non-Christian world has discovered the value of forgiveness and if non-Christians can see the value of forgiveness that leaves us without excuse doesn’t it.

Sid: How much more I mean “We’re supposed to be the light and the salt.”

RT: That’s exactly it.

Sid: Well I have a young man Larry Sparks on the telephone that he is just finishing up on his Masters Degree and the subject he’s getting it in anyone would like this. How in the world do you get a Masters in studying revival Larry? (Laughing)

Larry: Well I started my program and it was one of those things where I began with a Master of Divinity and Practical Theology. And over time it was one of those things where different concentrations came up. I had the opportunity to go with different things and one of the things that was available was church history particularly revival history. So it’s been really exciting to do that. And I’m just every time I go to class you know some people call seminary cemetery but the Lord’s really used it to ignite my faith exposing me to all of these stories of what’s God’s done.

Sid: Well Larry we’re talking today about your brand new book “Breakthrough Faith.” If there has ever been a time that people need a breakthrough that time is now! Before we even get into the keys for breakthrough I want to take you back right at you were saved at 16 and you started going to a church that was known for worship, but something happened to you that has literally changed the whole direction of your life. You had an experience; a man with an experience with God is dangerous to the devil. What happened to you?

Larry: Well it’s very interesting because and I want to encourage all of the listeners right now that for something to be supernatural it doesn’t need to be spectacular it can be very subtle and that’s what happened to me. I was on a quest to know God, I was looking at different churches it just came out of the blue it is the Lord just awakening this inside of me. I’d got a lot of information about God but information and revelation are two different things. You can have information about somebody but never be intimate with them. And so I got information I went to Christian school but at 16 years old I got my driver’s license, I heard about this local church that had something called Contemporary Praise and Worship which I had no idea I was just used to organs and maybe just kind of the old style of music in a church. I went and the message was good but the music was a little strange people were lifting their hands and clapping and it was bazaar to me but one night it was July of 1999 in that church I was standing there in the midst of worship very suddenly but very powerfully I felt like a heat in my chest and then kind of a electricity in my fingers. This was not stuff I was imagining it was a physical thing again I didn’t fall over I didn’t have anything like that happen but it was so deep and so profound I knew it was God, I knew He was real, and the amazing thing Sid is I’m still living out of that one encounter. Again it was so subtle I still live out of that because it was so wow this God who’s out there, this God who’s real more of Him to be experienced.

Sid: You know if you ever read the Wuest translation of the Bible?

Larry: No.

Sid: It’s a fabulous one and John 17:3 says “This is eternal life namely that they might be having experiential knowledge of You.” And to me that’s the missing ingredient of 21^st century Christianity. And yes you need to word, yes you need to be born from above but a man with an experience is as I said is dangerous to the devil. So you found yourself going to a church that was in what is called Word of Faith teaching. Now as you and I have discussed before this broadcast I started under a man by the name of Kenneth Hagen I didn’t go to his school and I read all of his literature and I got to know him personally. I found that short of someone that operates in the glory realm or in miracles say a Bill Johnson.

Larry: Yes.

Sid: That if someone is struggling with healing that is the single best teaching that I know, and so this is how I grew up. But then the same thing that happened to you happened to me and that is people took the pure Word of Faith message in having to do with healing but then opened it up to other arenas like finances and then went overboard way beyond the people like Kenneth Hagen took it. What was your experience in this word of faith church?

Larry: Well first off it’s funny Sid because people will ask me you know reading my book or just knowing me in the past they’ll say “Are you one of the those faith people?” And I just find that such a funny thing it’s like what’s the opposite “Do you want me to be a doubt person?” You know it’s just like the reality is the word of faith movement from what I’ve studied and what I understand. It was actually been born out of a Biblical principal and that is just stand on the word of God, confess the word. In fact I was thinking about this Sid yesterday just as we’d been talking about it you know what Lord “The word of faith movement has actually made a huge contribution to the Body of Christ because in so many spheres and so much Bible knowledge, but Word of Faith particularly under the influence of Brother Hagen really encouraged us to put the word to work and actually speak it out and actually just sitting there and reading it which is good but he really invited us that movement really encourage us to put it into action. So I was at a Word of Faith church and so I got a lot of good principals was exposed the believers authority the power in the name of Jesus. Oh gosh another great one was “God’s Creative Power” by Charles Capps but what ended up happening is that we were there 7 years this was not the church I had the encounter with God at by the way this was a different church. And the church where I had the encounter really throughout the years to this very day places an emphasis on the presence. The word of faith church had a lot of principals but the presence of God was not their pursuit it was basically putting good principals into formulas to getting what you wanted from God. I remember there was a teaching series “How to get what you want and need and desire from God.” And the reality is God wants to meet your need I want to encourage the listeners God wants to meet your needs. He wants to actually fulfill the desires of your heart He wants to do those things the problem is God is not a formula; He’s not like Santa Claus, He is our best friend. The Holy Spirit is our best friend; we love Jesus because of who He is. And in the book I really place an emphasis on the knowledge God intimately knowing God because when we divorce intimacy with God, the presence of God from good Biblical principals again we turn God a person God the person into a formula and that’s what we found, that’s what we saw after 7 years of being in that movement. And you know that I would say is the imbalance of the Word of Faith.

Sid: I agree totally with that but you also found some sort of when they went way much further than people like Hagen in having to do with finances.

Larry: Yes, yes I mean the entire message it was funny the tithe messages asked the church, not just this particular church but these particular churches would be like an hour long sometimes, no exaggeration. It doesn’t mean that always bad but it’s just the emphasis when the bent of the emphasis is that church, when the culture of that church is all about using God just to get money and wealth and stuff and using those principals with plug in to the God formula and okay I’m going to plug in my confession because I just want to get what I need from God that just rubbed us the wrong way. What happened with me, and this is what sort of created tension with me and the church, I and some others in the church we looked outside of that particular teaching for people that were teaching about the presence of God, about intimacy with God. And people out there like John Bevier there were people that I knew at the time who were encouraging people to draw near to God.

Sid: Now just out of curiosity did you find yourself because of the legalistic approach coming under condemnation?

Larry: Yeah, yes I found myself in that position and other people did because it got so crazy and sometimes where as if you said something for example if you said “You know what I’m having a pretty bad day today or wow man my back hurts” if you say that people would actually say “Don’t say that you’re going to curse your life.” Now again there’s a balance again they’re saying “I’m having a bad day and they’re saying that my back hurts but then they’re saying you know what I’m going to die at age 50.” And actually believing that and confessing that and pronouncing that and confessing that over your life I believe you can I mean Biblically you can curse your life when you actually agree with the report of the devil.” But man that was the legalism…

Sid: But then because of where they were at and because of your hunger for intimacy with God you went from one extreme to another extreme.

Larry: (Laughing)

Sid: Tell me what happened.

Larry: Well when we left that particular church after being there 7 years, I was there about 7 years. I wanted to run away from all of that I wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Which by the way you know one thing I believe the Lord wants to do Sid as we’re talking just as He is in me I believe that He wants to heal our sins in our hearts because it’s easy to get offended by that stuff it is. It’s easy to get offended in situation where maybe you or a loved one were praying for healing or praying for a breakthrough and somebody said something real bad to you like “Wow you didn’t get healed you didn’t have enough faith or you didn’t make the right confession.” I believe Sid even as we’re talking about this the Holy Spirit is touching people and just bringing restoration and healing to ascend. He’s actually causing them to remember these things just simply repent for them and I believe the Lord wants to bring a Biblical balance to this and help people to walk in breakthrough. Because Sid the opposite I think, it was even I don’t know if it was just as bad or might have been worst, is that I ran away from all of that stuff almost running away from the Charismatic movement entirely I couldn’t. I couldn’t run away from the presence because I had been so profoundly impacted. So I was running away from the word of faith stuff anytime I heard anybody talk about it use any of that language there was a great offense or anger in my heart. And then what happened is we found ourselves in churches that basically they had faith for when you got to heaven you know “Well if God sovereignty wants to heal you maybe or if He sovereignty wants to move now that’s great but we’re holding out for heaven one day we’ll believe that we’ll be healed and whole and everything and all of our problems will be solved when we get to heaven one day.” But there was not a lot of hope for right now for today. We were in that for a couple of years and it was the exact opposite and what we noticed is I believed that a lot of people in that culture end up needlessly dealing with the devil. I mean needlessly walking in sickness and defeat and just being condemned and overwhelmed. So yeah that was the other opposite it was great theological teaching that we go about the cross and I am grateful yeah forever grateful, but when it came to walking in faith for now for now to see victory now it was quite the opposite.

Sid: And today when you prayed out to God and you said “Okay I feel like a billiard ball I mean I’m going this direction and I’m going that direction. You prayed to God “What is the truth.”

Larry: Yeah.

Sid: What did God begin to reveal to you?

Larry: Well you know what happened He immediately brought me to the word, and I would encourage the listeners that’s the best place to go because I was just doing for…I was doing a study of healing throughout the New Testament throughout the gospels just different healing stories. And I got to one and I read it and heard it before and heard message about it but man it really ignited something inside of me tenacity. And it was Mark chapter 2 where you have these 4 men who carry their paralyzed friend I mean the guy is completely paralyzed paraplegic cannot move they’re carrying him on a stretcher they bring him to Jesus they want to bring him to Jesus. But what happened is they get to the house where Jesus is and they can’t get in they can’t get in because of the crowd there’s this obstacle there’s opposition and my fear is that today that would happen and what would happen as a result of that we have a need, we bring it to Jesus we experience opposition and because there is an obstacle and we don’t immediately see a breakthrough the sad thing is a lot of people actually change theology about God because of what they don’t see. They bring their need to God, they pray, they cry out and they don’t immediately see something happen so they conclude “Well I guess God doesn’t heal, I guess God doesn’t want to do this and well we’ll just let God’s sovereign will be the sovereign will whatever happens happens.” I’d be okay if these 4 guys ended up making a different decision turning around going home and concluding to themselves “You know what I guess it’s not God’s will to heal our friend today.”But they did not do that and that just got inside of me Sid I saw what they did they were tenacious they were relentless they actually carried the parallelized up to the roof broke the ceiling, lowered him down to Jesus. And Jesus was not upset about this I think about this “What if this happened in churches today?” And “We don’t even want to think about this oh the service is being interrupted all of this is being is going on.” But if anybody, if anybody should not have been interrupted it should have been Jesus but Jesus did not get upset, He did not get bothered. He said “He saw their faith” and He said “Son your sins are forgiven.” And then as a result he healed the man, but we know what happened to know the outcome but what got me was the audacious relentless attitude of these 4 friends they did not accept the obstacle instead the obstacle caused them to press into God a little further and as a result they got their breakthrough. I’m wondering today for those of you guys that are listening to us if maybe your breakthrough I’m believing that maybe your breakthrough might just be on the other side of perseverance. And I’m praying that the Spirit of God would just give you a supernatural fresh anointing of perseverance and strength to contend for your breakthrough.

Sid: I believe people and that is so key people quit just before the victory. But let’s face it we do have an adversary. For instance I…you know what gets me so upset Larry is when believers real believers say “Well everything that happens to me in my life is God’s will.” What would you say?

Larry: I would say “You know what look at Mark Chapter 2 that’s just one example, one example.” I would say “Look at the different gospel accounts.” We need to go back to the gospels we need to be challenged by how Jesus responded because so many times whether it’s this paralyzed may being lowered through the ceiling, whether it’s blind Bartimaeus crying out, whether it was the woman with the issue of blood. This woman was nonstop blood flow 12 years pressing through a crowd to get to Jesus. These people actually did not allow there circumstance to be final; they did not believe that their circumstance and situation was superior to the word of God. They didn’t do so many people today do and it’s kind of a lazy theology they just say “You know what it happening so I default that it must be God’s will.” These people had something happening to them but they did not conclude that it was God’s will they actually thought that God’s will was actually something very different and they pressed in to receive it. And that’s why we have these stories in the Bible in the gospel they pressed in and they got the miracle, it’s amazing.

Sid: Now your brand new book “Breakthrough Faith” you wrote it for 3 groups of people who are they?

Larry: Well I wrote it first of all for people who are hungry, for people who want more of God and who want to actually see a breakthrough lifestyle become normal for them. Because that’s what God wants to do He wants to release something that is sustainable. Sustain not just a touch, not just an encounter those things are great but He wants this lifestyle to be sustained. So I believe…

Sid: That really is your passion of your life.

Larry: Yeah.

Sid: To have greater and greater hunger and intimacy with the God, that should be everyone’s passion.

Larry: Yes absolutely because here’s the thing there’s no limit to how much of Him we can experience. In Isaiah 9:10 “And the increase of His government there will be no end.” There is so much that He wants to release into the earth and He releases it into the earth through His people His kingdom. Where’s His kingdom? The kingdom inside of us so my desire is first that yeah this book would stir up those that are already hungry for God.

Sid: Alright the 2^nd people group.

Larry: (Laughing) And really the second group of people would be people who have been offended or people who have had false…exposure to the false faith to the incorrect faith. Whether it was extreme word of faith teaching or the cardinal gospel of their spirit, people who are just about ready to give up on the what they call “All that faith stuff.” My prayer and my earnest desire is that not only would this encourage faith people people that are already believing for this but people who have no exposure to this. Sid that’s why I went to seminary that’s why I went I don’t believe it’s necessary to teach the gospel, to teach the word, I don’t think it’s imperative but I went because I want to do my best to steward these things and equip people especially those who are maybe not walking in a supernatural lifestyle I want to do what I can to bring a legitimacy to that. Sid that’s my desire through this book, through my own personal experiences with both sides and my best theological understanding of the Bible to help people who have just misconceptions and confusion about faith to actually start walking in it and get into and actually get hungry for it.

Sid: And of course the biggest need are those that feel that they’ve done everything they’ve been taught to do and they were supposed to be healed and they weren’t and they’re in a hopeless state you need breakthrough faith. This is what I can promise you you’re going to have a breakthrough of epic proportions this is what I’m going to promise you you will have a breakthrough of epic proportions. I believe that we had 2 of our staff senior producer types that read this book and they understood all about Word of Faith and healing and they said “What a breath of fresh air I feel like I’m now encouraged, I now have this breakthrough faith….When we come back I’ve got to hear the vision you had of the ancient rusty gates that are part of the entire breakthrough.

Sid: It’s not an accident that right after we finished our Days of Elijah Celebration in St. Simons Island, Georgia, and for those that did not know about it we had an intercessors conference. We had close to 200 intercessors that came in and prayed 2 days on the same grounds where the conference was going to be. And literally we had heaven on earth.

But almost simultaneous to the conference I want to read you an account from the Boston Globe:

The rocks have been lifted all over Europe and the snakes of Jew hatred are slithering free.

In Belgium thugs beat up the Chief Rabbi kicking him in the face and calling him a dirty Jew. Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed, a third was sprayed with automatic weapons fire.

In Britain, the cover of the New Statesman, a left wing magazine depicted a large star of David stabbing the Union Jack. Oxford Professor Tom Paulin, a noted poet, told an Egyptian interviewer that “American Jews who move to the West Bank in Gaza should be shot dead.” A Jewish Yeshiva student reading the Psalms was stabbed 27 times on a London bus. Anti-Semitism wrote a columnist in The Spectator “has become respectable at London dinner tables.” She quoted one member of the House of Lords quote “The Jews have been asking for it and now thank God we can say what we think at last.”

In Italy, the daily paper published a Page 1 cartoon: A tank emblazoned with a Jewish Star points it’s gun at the baby Jesus who pleads “Surely they don’t want to kill me again.”

In Germany, a rabbinical student was beaten up in downtown Berlin and a grenade was thrown into a Jewish cemetery. Thousands of neo-Nazis held a rally marching near a synagogue on a Jewish Sabbath. Graffiti appeared on a synagogue in a western town of Herford “Six million were not enough.”

In Ukraine skinheads attack Jewish worshippers and smashed the windows of Kiev synagogue. Ukrainian police denied the attack was anti-Jewish.

In Greece, Jewish graves were desecrated in Ioannina and vandals hurled paint in the Holocaust memorial in Salonica.

In Holland, an anti-Israel demonstration featured swastikas, photos of Hitler and chants of “Sieg Heil” and “Jews into the sea.”

But nowhere has the flames of anti-Semitism burn more ferociously than in France. In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire.In Montpellier, the Jewish center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseille. So was a Jewish School in Creteil. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails.

In Bondy 15 men beat-up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The bus that takes Jewish children to school had been attacked 3 times in the last 14 months. According to the police metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents per day since Easter. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming “Jews to the gas chambers” and “Death to the Jews.”

I mean it goes on and on. It seems to me that a lot of people think the holocaust was ancient history, but you can go back all through history and see this Jew hatred. Even today I’m reading to you these are current events going on worldwide. Why is the Jew so hated? It’s because the church has yet to understand what the devil understands. That when the Jewish people are grafted back into the Body the full Body of Messiah Jew and Gentile become that One New Man and new life.

Let me put it this way, in Amos the 9^th chapter it talks about restoring or raising up the tabernacle of David. But the word tabernacle in the Hebrew could also be translated family of David. And so what Amos is saying in the ninth chapter the 11^th verse is “When the Tabernacle, or the family of David, or the Jewish people, is restored it says the rest of the Gentiles who are called by my name will come in.” It goes on to say that “When the family of David is restored a great revival will occur among the Gentiles,” and it says according to what I read here in the 13^th verse the greatest revival in history. It says “Behold the days are coming says the Lord when the plowman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes and him who sows seeds.” In other words the fruit will grow so fast it can’t even be harvested and that’s what we’re about ready to have.

But let me explain the principal on how this works, why Amos says “When the family of David is restored to the Body of Messiah it’s sort of like Genesis 12:3 God says “I’ll bless those who bless the Jewish people and I’ll curse those who curse them.” Well this principal is true throughout all of scripture and it’s found with the Ark of the Covenant. Wherever the Ark of the Covenant went, which represents the Jewish people, based on our attitude towards of the Ark of the Covenant was tremendous blessings or tremendous coursings. For instance in 1^st Samuel the 5^th verse it says that the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant. What happened? For 7 months they had the worst tumors and sores until they got rid of it.

Then in 2^nd Samuel the 6^th chapter the 11^th verse we find out that the Ark of the Covenant rested at the home of Obed Edom. And what happened? His entire house was blessed, so based on your attitude to the Jewish people, and this was what Paul was talking about in the 11^th chapter of Romans he said “If it was a blessing the Jewish people rejected their Messiah how much greater blessing when they receive their Messiah it will literally cause life from the dead.”

So this is why we had our Days of Elijah Conference which comes from Malachi the 3^rd chapter. And Malachi says…well let us pick up in the 4^th chapter the 5^th verse, “Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and the dreadful day of the Lord.” Now what is Elijah going to do? Well we know Elijah was a man who took on the prophets of Baal, took on the false gods and we know that John the Baptist had the Spirit of Elijah on him and what did he do? Nothing more than call Israel to repent so that there could be a great revival with the coming of the Lord.

So what is the spirit of Elijah that will come on the church in the last days going to do? The 6^th verse tells us “He will turn the hearts of the Fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers.” Interesting doesn’t say mothers it says fathers.

According to the 9^th chapter the 1^st verse of the book of Romans Paul says “The Fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” So what is Malachi saying? Of course he’s talking about a restoration of fathers and children in the literal, but he’s also talking about that great same spiritual principal that Paul talks about when the hearts of the fathers, the Jewish people are knit and returned to hearts of the children if the fathers are the Jewish people the children then are the Christians. So the hearts of the Christians it says if this doesn’t happen they’ll be a great curse. But guess what, if it does happen they’ll be a great blessing.

I wish you had been there at that conference The Days of Elijah because there was the most magnificent dancing and processional and we had literally a replica of the Western Wall and the Holy of Holies.

One 17 year old girl wrote in that attended the conference and she said “I saw 2 rows of angels; one was sitting on the edges of the tent meeting, the other row was behind them and they were dancing and singing while we were praising. Then she goes on to say “I saw an angels in the congregation one very large angel standing behind the worship leader the angel was large enough to have his hands over the worship leaders head; when we started singing the song it was like heaven paused to listen as all of the angels in the room stopped in the middle of what they were doing and stood awestruck as they listened.”

Now I could go…she just saw so many things going on in the angelic in the invisible realm. I wish I had seen this all; I’ll tell you what I sat under such an outpouring of God’s Spirit. Those that were there had reports of “I had no great heart for the Jewish people and Israel but after seeing this I understand why it’s so important to God for Jews and Gentiles to become One New Man in Jesus. It’s so important for Christians to stand up for the Jew in Israel.”

Sid: We want everyone to know that there’s an epidemic. Yes there really is, there’s an epidemic of people being healed of cancer that’s my kind of epidemic. And I’ve got on the telephone the head of the healing rooms of Santa Maria Valley, California. And Rick Taylor I guess if someone had talked to you a few years ago and said that “The doctors would be sending patients to you; the doctors themselves would be coming for physical healing; that you would have 100 believers from different denominations all come together in unity and there would be an outpouring of the Spirit to such a point that not just gold dust but gold nuggets appear, and angels are being seen almost weekly that people have visions of Jesus when they walk in that place.” If someone had said that to you a few years ago what would you have said?

Rick: Well I would have had a hard time believing that it would have come through out ministry. But we’re just so excited that is happening and it’s…those prophecies are coming true today.

Sid: I have to ask you my favorite story from looking over the notes about that little girl that had all of those cavities. Tell me about her.

Rick: Yes there was a girl 14 years old who just got her braces taken off and the orthodontist discovered just by looking in her mouth she had quite a few cavities. So what they did is they x-rayed the teeth and sure enough they found 13 cavities. Now you know the parents didn’t have insurance and the little girl was really in a lot of trauma because of this procedure that was about to take place. So they set a date to begin the procedure. But mean while this girl told her mom, she said “You know I heard that there’s a place in Santa Maria called the Healing Rooms and they’re seeing miracles. Take me there and maybe God will heal my cavities.” And sure enough the mom took her in to see us and as the team was praying for this girl she felt a sensation happening in her teeth. And the very next day she went to the dentist, the dentist looks into her mouth and he was in shocked he no longer sees the cavities. Well he does another x-ray and he thought there was something wrong with his x-ray machine so he sent her to another dentist. Now the next dentist x-rays her and she brings the x-rays back to the original dentist and he’s holding up these ex-rays and he’s shaking his head and he looks at her and said “What did you do?” And this little girl just said “You know what I went to the healing rooms and they began to pray for me and I felt this strange sensation happening in my teeth. And now this little girl is healed, actually she had 13 cavities; God healed 11 of her cavities. Now I don’t know why the Lord did heal all 13 but that’s pretty amazing.

Sid: Now how could this dentist does he think maybe the x-rays were wrong?

Rick: He thought originally he thought there was something wrong with the x-rays but the second set of x-rays proved that it was truly a miracle that took place. And that’s all he can say this is a miracle.

Sid: I love it when dentist say that. Let me take you back to the beginning when you were a young child you had Godly grandparents that were actually part of a famous ministry on the west coast Amy Semple McPherson. And even most of us have heard they actually saw Smith Wigglesworth minister. As a young child they used to tell you stories of what they had seen what impact did this have on you?

Rick: It had an amazing impact. I remember as a child just a young child I would go to my grandmother’s house and I’d say “Grandma tell me the stories of the miracles.” And she would tell me over and over of the people who walked in who were blind and after prayer they received their sight. Those that could not hear were hearing, people in wheelchairs she witnessed and saw people get out of wheelchairs. She was telling me one time an ambulance pulled up to the Evangelist Temple and they brought a guy out on a stretcher who was not expected to live. And immediately he rose up and I never got tired of those stories. And the problem with church was we never saw that in church and so as a young man I really began to get bored with church because I didn’t see the power that was in the Bible and the power that was my grandmother saw. And I knew that church has to change, we need to get the power back in the church once again to let the world know that Jesus is alive.

Sid: And what’s the Spirit of God telling you? Are we in this generation going to see the power that most of us just read about in the Bible that does not happen in the average church? And yet when I read the history of the first church the least Christian walked in the supernatural power of God to such a supernatural point that if they would have been Catholic the Catholic Church would have called them a saint.

Rick: Yes, well not only are we going to see it Sid but we are seeing it. But wonderful thing about the healing room here is there’s not a superstar among us. We’re a group of about 100 people from 32 different denominations. The Lord said to raise up to train the ordinary Christians, we just ordinary Christians and we believe that Jesus is who He says He is and He’ll do what He says He’ll do.

Sid: Well you know what there are a number of other places some connected with your organization some not that are called healing rooms and they’re having some miracles but nothing like what’s going on at your place.

Rick: Well I can’t explain it I know there’s been a lot of prophetic words over our geographical area over Santa Maria. We’ve dug a well we spent a lot of time a few weeks in intercession digging that healing well. We have a lot of people that come to us with great expectation and I really believe that expectation is that key that unlocks the heavens.

Sid: When I hear that word what I think about is someone I had a chance to meet personally Kathryn Kuhlman. And when people would come in buses to her miracle services many would get healed on the bus, many standing in the long lines would get healed even before they got into the meeting and I think the word, the key operative word is expectancy.

Rick: That’s right I got to be in one of her meetings one time also and the very first word the first sentence she said when she came out on the stage was “I Believe in Miracles.” And as she said that…

Sid: You know you came as a skeptic didn’t you.

Rick: Well yeah you know when I was a little boy a young man I was a Christian but I got away I was disillusioned with the church because I didn’t see the power I got bored. I still had those inside me all of those stories my grandmother spoke to me and so I went just because I wanted to see even though I wasn’t a Christian at the time I wanted to see the power of God manifested.

Sid: You know non-believers want to see miracles now they think they’re fake but in their somewhere deep within they’re hoping they’re not fake.

Rick: Well I’ll tell you when Kathryn Kuhlman came out on the stage and she said “I believe in miracles” you can feel the atmosphere change and expectancy just came into the room and all over the room people were getting healed there was miracles happening without her laying on hands or praying for anyone. It’s because doubt and unbelief left the room and expectancy filled the place and Jesus just began to heal people.

Sid: So how much doubt and unbelief do you have in the atmosphere in your healing rooms?

Rick: Hopefully we have absolutely zero; we believe that God will heal every person that comes in.

Sid: 1996 you and your wife started have strange visitations. As a matter of fact, I wonder if you will put Lori on right now your wife and I’d like to ask her about this. I have on the telephone none Lori Taylor.

Lori: Hello.

Sid: Hi Lori would you tell our audience what you told me earlier about in 1996 when an angel came into your bedroom.

Lori: Okay, one night Rick and I had just gone to bed and just he was asleep and I was just falling asleep and all of a sudden our room just lit up. And we live out in the country and there’s no streetlights or anything so our room was pretty pitch dark. And it lit up and I opened my eyes and I looked and at the foot of our bed there was a large angel and he was kneeling. He looked at me and it startled me because I wasn’t expecting anyone in our room so I screamed and then Rick sat up and said “What’s the matter.” And I said “There’s a man in our room.”

Sid: (Laughing)

Lori: And he was kind of startled too but later as I thought back on it I’m not exactly sure why the Lord allowed me to see him or why he was there.

Sid: Did Rick see him?

Lori: No, Rick did not see him.

Sid: What did he look like?

Lori: He was just beautiful he had skin unlike a human skin it was just flawless clear and smooth and he had really pretty blue eyes. He had kind of sandy blonde wavy hair about to his shoulders. And when I looked at him he was smiling and he was looking at me and I just…and I looked into his face and I just felt just indescribable love and I knew it was an angel of the Lord and it was just a wonderful thing to see him.

Sid: Well put Rick back on the phone I want to see what he thought when his wife Lori hears that says there’s a man in the room. Rick what did you think?

Rick: What did I think about the light?

Sid: The light and the man?

Rick: Well the thing is you know when you’re asleep you’re not sure what’s happening but I saw the room just lit up and this is really strange. When Lori screamed you know something is happening here. And then she told me she saw a man and so we’re actually turning lights on and I can’t find the man anywhere. And so we were just awake with our hearts pounding. And so we just didn’t know “What was this?” That was just the beginning of series of visitations.

Sid: What happened next?

Rick: Well what happened next was it was a few nights later all of a sudden I was awoken and I looked at the right hand top corner of our room towards our ceiling and I saw a lion. Sid it was like it was a zoo it wasn’t a vision it was a real lion. Now this lion had eyes that were like penetrating my very soul. And I knew this lion knew everything about me and it was just staring at me. And then all of a sudden this lion began running at me and it just scared me to death I almost like I pulled the covers over me but it ran right through me and out the back wall of our room. And it was the weirdest thing I don’t know if I slept the rest of the night it was such an amazing thing…

Sid: Oh we’re out of time.