Sid:  My guest is red hot for the Messiah; it’s so hard for me to believe that my good friend, Rabbi Michael Zeitler went through a pass like we’ve been talking about.  He was raised in a nice Jewish home, both parents Jewish. He was Bar Mitvahed like most Jewish people.  Then he went off a little bit, we went into drugs, and sex and alcohol and rock music.  In fact you were a musician, right Michael?

Michael:  That’s correct, yes I was a singer and I played the Blues Harp, the harmonica in a Rock band.

Sid:  But then, I mean for a Jewish person, he gets involved in witchcraft, in Wicca reading tarot cards; then he goes into forms of Buddhism, he chants three hours a day.  He’s got these beads, what you do with these beads Michael?

Michael:  Well, what I did you had them in our hands and we’d rub them together and they would make this very strange noise as we were praying, were rubbing these beads together.  I have no idea what it meant.

Sid:  But as a Jew how could you do that?

Michael:  Ha ha ha ha ha, I told you, Jewish people they have a nick name, wandering Jews, and so I was a seeker.

Sid:  Okay, speaking of wandering you then wandered to Peru with your girl friend, she wants you to see her parents, it happens to be Resurrection Sunday time and you don’t want to go to church because you’re Jewish?  Why didn’t you want to go, oh I remember, because when you were eight years old you had that trauma.

Michael:  I had that going on Sid all the way up until I was twenty one.

Sid:  I mean, when you heard the name Jesus, what happened to you, when you heard His name mentioned?

Michael:  Sid, every time I would hear the name of Jesus spoken to me, all the way from the time I was eight years old until…

Sid:  That’s when you were called Christ killer and you went home crying.

Michael:  Yes, my friend had a yellow broom stick in his hand he was slamming it down in the middle of the street yelling and screaming at me, saying I killed Jesus, that I was a Jew.  After that, I would smell an infant’s vomit strongly in my nostrils every time the name Jesus was mentioned from that point.

Sid: Okay, so you are definitely not going to go to church with your girl friend in Peru for an Easter Service because you know that you are going to hear the name Jesus.  So you find you’re looking for a movie that is in English that may not be too easy in Peru to find a movie.  Did you find one?

Michael:  I found one. 

Sid:  What was it called?

Michael:  Hahahaha, Jesus Christ Superstar.

Sid:  How could you go to that?  But that was better than church I guess.

Michael:  That and also because you got to remember I was a Hippie, so this was like a Hippie thing and I didn’t want to go to any of the other movies that were playing because they were all passion plays, and I did not want to see that.  So I went to see Jesus Christ Superstar and as I said, you know God can use a donkey so he could use anything.  And during that movie supernaturally God delivered me from that smell.

Sid:  In other words every time that he heard the name Jesus he would almost get sick to his stomach and all of a sudden instantly he was delivered.  So then you decide to go to the Catholic Church, did you become Catholic?

Michael:  No.

Sid:  Why, you became Buddhist, you became a witch, why not Catholic?

Michael:  Hahahaha it was too far to go.

Sid:  Okay, but you did pick up a couple of saints.  Tell me about that.

Michael:  Yes, while I was in Lima living there for eight months in Peru and Lima is Capital of Peru I picked up the Patron Saint of Lima, St. Rose Santa Rosa.  And also the black saint of Peru which is the only black Saint in the hierarchy of saints in Catholicism, San Martin de Porres, I took them home with me.

Sid:  Statues of them

Michael: I had a big framed picture of Jesus with a bleeding heart. Hahahaha

Sid:  You go full circle, hahaha. Okay, so you go home with your two statues and your girl friend, you marry her and how did that marriage work out by the way?

Michael:  It worked out wonderfully for ten years; I had a beautiful son who is now thirty-one years old, Jeremy and a beautiful daughter Alisha who is now twenty-eight.  She was on your program a number of years ago.  And then after I came to accept the Lord a number of years later you know during the marriage, the tenth year of our marriage I was no longer the fun party animal that my wife enjoyed and fell in love with.  She felt I was like a priest around the house, and she made that statement.  And little by little she got more and more turned off to me being this on fire believer that was running around chasing all our friends away because of who I was witnessing to and why I was witnessing to them.  And eventually she decided to divorce me because she could no longer live with this zealous believer.

Sid:  Okay, you get invited while you are still married, you get invited to an organization that I actually started speaking for almost the moment I became a believer and that’s the Full Gospel Businessman’s Fellowship International.  It’s a group of businessmen that have a luncheon or have a dinner and they invite people and you were invited and at the end of the meeting were you surprised when a Jewish man walked up to you and started talking to you?

Michael:  Yes, very much.

Sid:  Tell me about that.

Michael:  He introduced himself as Joe Cohen.

Sid:  And Cohen, you come from the Cohan’s which is the priests of Israel.  But go ahead.

Michael:  I didn’t know that there were Jewish people that believed in Yeshua.  I was shocked.  I thought everybody was Gentile that believed in Yeshua and when he came up to me after I had been asked by the person who was the President of that chapter to give my testimony of what I’m telling you now on the phone and this interview to 150 people public speaking for the first time in my life.  And after I gave this whole story, he came up to me at the very end of the dinner.

Sid:  But wait a second, why would they ask you to share, you weren’t really a believer in Jesus?

Michael:  I don’t know?  I have no idea to this day I don’t why Norman Sherry asked me to give my story, because it wasn’t really a testimony, you know to have a testimony you have to have a test.

Sid: Okay, so this Cohen fellow comes up to you and what does he say?

Michael:  He says that was a nice story, but do you know Jesus?  And I said, no.

Sid:  Now, we Jewish people, we cut right to the quick, do you know Jesus?

Michael:  Hahahaha.

Sid: Okay, you said no, then what?

Michael:  Then he proceeded to take me outside, because they were closing up and we were in the parking lot for over an hour till about 1:30 in the morning and he told me his testimony about being a gambler, about being involved in drugs and all of his life and how he changed and after he explained everything, it made perfect sense. And so he asked me if I wanted to accept Yeshua and I said yes, and I prayed with him that night and accepted the Lord for the first time.

Sid: Okay, and then he tells you you need to go to a congregation to get mentored and disciple and you need to be immersed in the Holy Spirit.  It didn’t take long, you got rid of all of your charms and amulets and statues ha-ha, and you renounced your sin and then tell me about your immersion in the Holy Spirit.

Michael:  Well, after I called up Norman Sherry the next day, I was so excited and on fire for the Lord and this change…

Sid:  Do you know what every congregation in America needs, a brand new Jewish believer like Michael Zeitler, am I right Michael?

Michael:  Yes.

Sid:  I mean this would cause that life from the dead resurrection power in your congregation.  Okay, you called him.

Michael:  Okay, I called him up and said is there anything else to the Full Gospel Businessman.  And he enticed me by coming to a free dinner that was the only reason why I went honestly because he was inviting me to a free dinner.  I didn’t know what it was about.  So I said, is there anything else going on, he said yes, there is a breakfast this Saturday; so all of this is taking place so far in a week’s time.  So Saturday I go and they say to me tell the people that you are Jewish and you accepted the Lord, well I was afraid, because I thought that maybe they would be persecuting me because of that.  And then the president of this other chapter said, “Do you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit?”  I said no, I didn’t even know what he was talking about.  And at the end of the meeting he invited those that wanted to receive the baptism to come forward.  I came forward; a number of men laid hands on me, he’s saying there it is, there it is, I’m like, there is what?  All of a sudden a bubbling going on in my stomach and a stirring, I feel something coming out of my throat and the next thing I know I’m speaking in another language and I can’t stop for two your hours and I’m shaking like a leaf.

Sid:  Two hours?

Michael:  Couldn’t stop, I tried to close my jaw and it would pop open and I’d keep going.

Sid:  I’ll tell you though that when you receive the anointing for miracles, we’ll pick up right there on tomorrows broadcast.  But Mishpochah something so wonderful is happening in Rabbi Michael’s ministry now, I’m speaking to him by way of telephone, he is in Peru and the most outrageous miracles are happening when he talks about the miracles of Israel it’s like God is so pleased the presence of God just radiates.  Then for some reason, I shouldn’t say some reason, the shofar, the rams horn is a supernatural instrument when he blows that rams horn so many miracles have happened in the last few months?

Michael:  Over a thousand.

Sid:  Over a thousand and how many people have been saved?

Michael:  Over two hundred.

Sid:  My guest is red hot for the Messiah; Mark Virkler’s come out with a series called “Prayers That Heal the Heart.”  It’s on eight CDs and it’s got seven supernatural prayers that covers every imaginable base to remove the anchors or the legal rights that spirits have and then they have to leave.  And people that have had problems and sickness, problems with certain emotions like fear that have been successive, problems with addictions, they’re getting free.  I wonder Mark if you would explain to me what a heart is like that needs to be healed and what a heart is like that’s been healed.

Mark:  Alright, that’s a great question Sid because a lot of times we don’t realize our need for deliverance and I didn’t realize my need for deliverance and when Kaye Cox prayed for me she cast out a good twenty demons or so.  And so I asked the question afterwards, “How could I had twenty demons inside of me and been a Spirit-filled pastor for the Lord and not known I needed deliverance?”  And the Lord gave me a definition of a healed heart, He said a healed heart is a heart that is full of faith, hope and love.  1 Corinthians 13:13 “Faith, Hope and Love now abide, faith, hope and love.  The abiding realities; they go into eternity and a healed heart is a heart that has that in it and an unhealed heart is a heart that has any opposite of faith, hope and love in it.  So the opposites of course of faith would be things like, fear, doubt, unbelief.  Opposite of Hope would be rejection, abandonment, loneliness; opposite of love would be anger, hatred, rage and bitterness; so those would be heart wounds.  We would consider each one of those categories a heart wound: fear, doubt, unbelief is a heart wound.  Rejection, abandonment, loneliness is a heart wound and demons can live there.  So if there is any area of my life or your life that you can look at and say I don’t have faith, hope and love there.  Like I look at my marriage do I have faith, hope and love this is going to be an exquisite marriage.  Do I look at my finances and say I have faith, hope and love; I’m going to have abundance and no lack.  Do I look at my children and my ministry and say I have faith, hope and love there.  If there is any area that you can look at and say I don’t have faith hope and love there then that’s a heart wound that needs some prayer ministry.                       

Sid: Mark as a pastor you had a very effective deliverance ministry and then when you saw just not getting results, you pray and nothing would happen, did you figure that maybe you didn’t have a deliverance ministry?

Mark:  Ha-ha-ha, well I obviously knew I did have a deliverance ministry because I cast thousands of demons out of hundreds of people.

Sid:  So why did you stop?

Mark:  Well, because I’m a theologian primarily and I got very frustrated theologically because I commanded a demon for an hour to come out in the Name of Jesus and it wouldn’t move and I said, “I’m so confused theologically I’m not going forward in this area anymore, I’m sorry.”

Sid:  Okay, so you stopped for at least a decade what caused you to start again?

Mark:  Ha-ha well, I got messed up in my own heart, my own heart picked up wounds during that ten to twelve year period and…

Sid:  It’s fairly easy to pick up wounds by being in ministry; actually it’s pretty easy to pick up wounds by being a human.

Mark:  Well, it really is you know, I got fired from a job or two, and I had a few people reject me from the things that I was saying so I picked up a spirit of rejection and a self rejection and I picked up anger and hatred towards those whose who fired me.  And so I had demons of anger and hatred and rejection and fear and fear of rejection and doubt and unbelief and all of them were attacking me.  And the way it would manifest for me is that I got into a situation that was the least bit fearful I would feel something rise up within my heart and grip me, it would rise up and grip me and I would be terrified.  And I said, “Man you know the situation is a little bit threatening but this fear owns me, it’s gripping me, it’s driving me and when something rises up and gripes you then that’s a good clue that it’s a demon.

Sid:  Okay, tell me about your experience with this woman, I’m not familiar with her “Kaye Cox.” 

Mark:  Yeah, Kaye Cox she was in Austria in the first seminar I went to.  Her husband was a surgeon and he said, that some of the third world patients he had he would give them to his wife and she would do prayer ministry and they wouldn’t need surgery afterwards and so…

Sid:  She’s going to put him out of business!

Mark:  Well, that’s why he didn’t give her all of his people…  Ha-ha and so I said, “Do you think that she would pray for me?”  And so he asked her and him and her got together and prayed for me the next day.  She spent about three hours and they cast about twenty demons out of me.  But they did more than that, before they cast the demons out they removed all the legal rights, the legal anchors that the demons had to get there.  They did inner healing prayer, breaking soul ties, ungodly beliefs, inner vows, inner healing, word curses and they went through and had me repent in all those different areas and that was removing the anchor that the demons were tied to and once the anchors were gone the legal rights were gone then she was able to cast the demons out very very easily and then the lights when on for me.  And then I said, “Now I understand why I couldn’t get that demon out even though I hollered for an hour at it in the Name of Jesus to leave because the demon had a legal right to be in the person’s life because the person had unconfessed sin.  And if we can break the legal rights and the anchors first then deliverance is easy.

Sid:  Just out of curiosity, when you had that session with Kaye and she cast these demons out of you you had been in ministry for how many years?

Mark:  Oh, probably a good fifteen to twenty years.

Sid:  Okay, what was there a perceptible difference in the way you felt, I mean did you feel lighter?  How did you feel?

Mark:  Oh yeah, see now I can face a fearful situation and nothing rises up within me and grips me.  Fear doesn’t rise up and gripe me and say, ah ha I own you, you know and now I don’t have anger rise up within me and say I hate this person, and control me and push me.  And I don’t have doubt and unbelief rise up.  You know my heart is free again, alright where it wasn’t free, I would have these things gripping my heart and there’s nothing inside now gripping my heart and pushing it in negative directions.  The only thing gripping my heart is the Holy Spirit saying, “Why don’t you forgive, why don’t you love, why don’t you be nice?”

Sid:  Tell me about the early church, we’ve kind of lost a lot of things from the early church, but was there view on deliverance?

Mark:  Well, one of the books I read many many years ago said that in the early church before people got saved, they automatically took everyone through deliverance as part of their preparation for water baptism and then they water baptized them; so it was normal and natural for everyone, everybody to experience deliverance.

Sid:  And do you know what’s kind of interesting is in books that I have read that after they ministered a little bit to the person they would exercise their faith just as in your series after someone dismantles all of the; you call them the anchors that are allowing the legal rights of that demon to be there, after that’s all dismantled you pray for the demon to leave.  Well what they use to believe is after everything is dismantled you just put someone and immersed them in water and when they come up they are free of every demon.  I kind of like that.

Mark:  Well, I like that too, you know we’ve heard stories today about people who went into the water of baptism and they were smokers and when they came out totally delivered from nicotine and they believed when then went into the waters they would be delivered and because they believed God met them.  And so yeah, we could train Christians, the young believers why don’t you believe to be totally set free of the power of darkness as you go through these baptism waters and if you’ll believe that God will break this all off you.

Sid:  Well what difference would it have made to you if you had gotten rid of all these legal rights, if these seven supernatural prayers had been prayed over you and every spirit was cast out when you first started as a believer?  Can you imagine the difference?

Mark:  You know I could have been a lot further down the road I think, because you know when you are believing people are going to reject you that doesn’t really facilitate an effective ministry because you are sending out waves of belief saying to the person I think you ought to reject me and there spirit hears that from my spirit, I think I should reject the guy.  So I went through a lot of rejection in those early years just because I believed that’s what was going to happen.

Sid:  Well, you have some amazing testimonies of people that have gone through your course and what’s happened with them and will talk about some of them later on this week.  But what do you feel like after you have taught this course and a hundred, two hundred people have these spirits cast out of them and their whole lives are changed, their whole destiny’s are changed?

Mark:  Ha-ha, well I tell you, yeah I’m over the top I am just as happy as I can possibly be, cause I’ll stay to the church and preach on Sunday because we do the deliverance on Saturday afternoon and evening usually and boy will share testimonies and they’ll say, “I’m free, I’m free, I’m free, I’m light, I’m light, I’m healed,” and it’s so rewarding to see the power of God transform a person’s life to deliverance for ministry.  It is just one of the greatest things that I’ve experienced.

Sid:  Give me something that just happened, a testimony that was just set free.

Mark:  Well, I’ll give you one from three days ago.  I was at Living Waters Ranch out in Idaho this last weekend and at the end of the seminar we broke into groups to pray for people who needed physical healing and one of the ladies in my group she had a neck wound.  She was in a car accident years ago and her neck, her vertebrae hurt her for many many years and we prayed for healing for that neck.  One of the things I prayed for was for deliverance for any demons attached to that neck to leave it.  And as we prayed that she said she felt something leave her neck, and we got done praying and she moved her neck all the way around in directions that she had not been able to move it for years.  And she said even though she had been prayed for several times for healing of her neck she had never had deliverance prayer and she felt that prayer and she felt that demon leave and it restored full mobility to her neck.

Sid:  This may be the key for all types of healings, but this has to be basic, basic, basic; the first type of discipleship for every new believer but the sad thing is most believer’s haven’t gone through this and so where ever you are at it is time to go through it and help others go through it.

Sid:  You know many years ago I was a stock broker in Merrill Lynch and we were taught that it’s really wrong to get inside information, you can get in trouble over that and you could lose your license as stock broker.  But guess what, we have a book called the Bible that gives us inside information about what’s going to happen from today till the return of Jesus and even after.  For instance, I can tell you what’s going to happen to many nations in the world.  And my guest he’s put together a book so that you will finally finally understand end time Bible prophecy called “God’s War on Terror” Islam prophecy in the Bible.  His name is Walid Shoebat, and Walid tell me about some of these nations that are in the headlines today, what’s going to happen…let’s take the one where the revolt really started, Egypt.  What’s going to happen to Egypt, what’s their fate?

Walid:  Well, you could have a civil war in Egypt, because in Isaiah 19 “The Lord comes riding in a  swift cloud that is coming into Egypt.  When He comes to Egypt it is clear, it says an Egyptian will go against an Egyptian, brother against brother, neighborhood against neighborhood; so it’s clear Egypt is doomed to basically self destruct as this revolution will collapse be basically taken over in the future.  It will be taken over by the Anti-Christ because even Daniel tells us Egypt, Libya and Cush, which is Sudan and Somalia will follow at his footsteps will follow him in submission.  Islam literally means submission.  They will follow the Anti-Christ.  It is very difficult to have a European Anti-Christ with all of these Islamic hordes following him.  It doesn’t make any sense so the fate of Egypt is clear; also the fate of all the Islamic countries are clear if you want me to share…

Sid:  Tell me about Syria.

Walid:  Well, Syria Damascus will cease to exist in one day and that is a believe in Isaiah…

Sid:  Well, if I were a stock broker I wouldn’t be buying any stock in Syria right now.

Walid:  It wouldn’t be a good idea, in fact Isaiah tells us from 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 you know it’s amazing including in Isaiah 21 that God will destroy Arabia the burden against Arabia.  So it’s pretty clear.

Sid:  So Saudi Arabia has some problems too.

Walid:  That’s correct, it’s going to get nuked because Elam, which is Iran, Persian will arise and destroy it.  Saudi Arabia is that Harlot that the Bible talked about and the beast must burn the harlot, they must burn their holy place.  It is not farfetched.  God says I will put it in their heart to do such a thing.  God will burn Arabia with the oil with it by the hands of the Muslim nations.  If you think that this is farfetched then we need to ask the question in the 1st gulf war, how was it possible that the Muslim world was silent when Saddam Hussein lobed scuds at Saudi Arabia? 

Sid:  Speaking of that, I don’t want to digress too much, but I was recently talking to a man that watches the news and in particularly CNN and he said, how can Israel be so inhuman, how can most of the press be supported of Israel when they murder innocent women and children?  When they attach the Palestinians and the people you know that are having the scud missiles?  It’s horrible to scud missiles, but how can they kill these innocent children and women?  What would you say to him?

Walid:  Well, we are looking at only one part of the equation, Israel retaliating.  This kind of analysis is a faulty analysis, because we have to understand that every day in Israel buses blowing up, cafés and restaurants people being murdered.

Sid:  Well, I’m told many of the Palestinians put the woman and children out as human shields to protect their scud missiles.

Walid:  Well look, I know the subject very well because my cousin Irene Shoebat was a famous suicide bomber who was behind the operation of Rezone Letdowns (?) in which three Israeli’s died and of course when the Israeli’s retaliated they will always position their terror factories, their bomb factories amidst a major population.  You look at Mohammed Ambout a very well wanted terrorist in my village in which when he was finally executed by Israel the entire walked into the ceremony of the martyr; which mean the people themselves are very much imbed with the terrorists and support the terrorists and allow the terrorists to set camp in their midst. This calls for high casualty which is not the fault of Israel but the fault of the cowards who are murdering their own children by the hands of Israel.

Sid:  Well why, if it’s unequal, unjust waste which it is why doesn’t the world see it?  Why is the world on the Palestinian side? 

Walid:  Because the world hates the Bible, because the Bible declares that that land belongs to Israel.  And the world who don’t want to believe and reject the Bible; reject Israel because of the hatred to God.  It’s really a war on God and this is why Christopher Hitchens author a book is “God is not great.”  I dare him to author a book “Allah is not great.”  No such thing will ever happen.

Sid:  Okay, what about what we’ve talked about a lot about these Muslim countries and your book goes into detail, I mean you will know what is going to happen before it happens, what about Israel?  What’s going to happen to Israel with all this money and all of these nations have aiming their guns at Israel and their bombs?

Walid:  Well, eventually a war will commence coming from Turkey, holding hands with Iran against Israel in which Jerusalem will be invaded.  In fact the Bible tells us half the city shall go into captivity.  In other words not even all the city is occupied by the armies of the Anti-Christ.  Which tells me that the Anti-Christ doesn’t rule the globe; he only occupies half the city to Jerusalem.  The women will be raped in the old city of Jerusalem in which will cause jealousy among the Jewish population in which the Bible tells us and the feeble amongst Jews that will fight like King David.  That’s when the Messiah will land on the Mount of Olives.

Sid:  So the Jews will become super warriors at that point.

Walid:  Absolutely, absolutely it will be a tremendous day, the day of the Lord, in which we will all join with Christ in that battle.

Sid:  Okay, now out of just curiosity it seems like all the action is the Middle East.  What’s happening to us in America?  Are we going to survive?  Are we Swiss cheese, what’s going on?

Walid:  No, we will survive, because it says in the Bible in Daniel chapter 11 that the Anti-Christ declares war on the strongest fortresses.  The strongest fortresses in this case will be the west, will be the might of the United States of America.  Some might argue and say well that means he will defeat America.  No such thing is written in the Bible; in fact the Bible tells us the opposite is true; that the most powerful of the nations will defeat the Anti-Christ.  It is basically the wrong message when we tell people America will go down.  It’s not true.

Sid:  Okay, they are going to get your book but tell me about…I was amazed on your understanding and of course I shouldn’t have been amazed because of your background; of the crescent moon, explain that to me.

Walid:  Well, the crescent moon is called in Arabic language or Aramaic language, Hay ell.

Sid:  That’s the symbol of Islam?

Walid:  That’s correct it’s the symbol of Islam, but biblically it’s also the symbol of Lucifer.

Sid:  Really!

Walid:  Hosea fourteen, how aren’t thou fallen from heaven oh Hillel bin solar.  Look at the Hebrew, not the word Lucifer, which is a Latin word, the Hebrew word says, Hillel which means brightness, it also means crescent moon.  In fact the nick name of Lucifer in the Bible is always been crescent moon.  It is the Bel, the Bel was the horns, the two horns resembling the crescent moon.  In fact every knee will bow; every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord in the New Testament.  We must also look at the Old Testament in Isaiah 45 and 46, Bel bows, there’s Bel, the moon god, Bel bows, Nebo stoops.  But when it says every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, Bel bows, it’s pretty clear.  Even Arthur Jeffrey who is one of the greatest historians on Islam said that Bel is the moon god.  In fact even Christ will take the moon god and He will cast it down to the ground in fulfillment of Psalm Chapter 83 in which he will be like Gideon fulfilling Judges Chapter 8:21 when he casts the crescents to the ground. 

Sid:  What goes on inside of you with your background, Walid when you hear our politicians on television saying Islam is a peace loving religion?  What goes on inside, I mean when I’ve seen these facts that you have in your book I know what goes on inside of me, but someone like you coming as an ex-Muslim terrorist, how do you feel?

Walid:  I look at them and I see them in fear, but we must always understand that the Bible tells us that the cowards will not inherit the kingdom.  We cannot be believers and be cowards, the cowards will not inherit the kingdom, it is very clear.  We cannot be Christians and be cowards at the same time.  For the ones that coward to Islam are not one of the children of God, they will reject God.

Sid:  You know, I feel a lot of news people are afraid to say what they know about Islam.

Walid:  That is correct.  I’m sorry we are out of time.

 

Sid:  Now several years ago I got the thought there are so many Jewish people trapped in the New Age.  There are so many Christians that are in mixture and they don’t even know it, trapped in aspects of the New Age.  Perhaps one of the most exciting evangelistic and/training books I can do is to the same format I did for Jewish people “They Thought For Themselves we followed that format in which I took the testimonies of Ten Jewish people that thought for themselves and became believers in Jesus with commentaries at the end of each of the testimonies.  Maybe I should do that same thing for the New Age and of course I knew my friend, Mike Shreve and Mike had a background before he became a believer as I did also in the New Age so I brainstormed with him a little bit and I said, why don’t I take some of the people that I have interviewed and some of the people that you know and do a book?  And let’s come up with a title and the title we came up with which is brilliant for people in the New Age “Truth Seekers” subtitled “Ten Amazing People Who Found It.”  And Mike was the editor and put it together and I am so excited, what am I excited about?  Because of the potential, now for starters for some of you that really don’t know what the word New Age means, “What does it mean, Mike Shreve?”

Mike:  Well the term “New Age” actually stems back to astrology, I’m sure some of the people listening to this broadcast remember that song that was so popular in the latter ‘60s “The Age of Aquarius.”  Well, that was talking about an astrological age; in astrology they believe the sun passes through houses as it goes around the earth.  Of course that’s an old way of viewing the solar system and that each of those ages last about 2200 to 2400 years.  And we happen to be according to astrological teaching in the Piscean age; which is an age of knowledge and reason and we’re about to enter into what they call according to that worldview the Age of Aquarius. Which is supposed to be an Age of great enlightenment where the human race walks in self realization and god consciousness and wars end and many of the problems and crisis’ that are going on in the world right now are solved; and we’re lifted to a whole new level of existence so it is a very hopeful optimistic way of looking at the future.  And that’s where you get the word or the phrase rather, New Age; it’s an anticipation of an Age to come that will be a beautiful and harmonious and peaceful Age here on the earth.

Sid:  You know as I hear you describe that it sounds like it is a perfect counterfeit of the Kingdom Age of God!

Mike:    Absolutely.

Sid:  I mean it’s a mirror perfect counterfeit of it!

Mike:  It is, because in a very qualified sense you could call Christians “New Agers” because we do believe a new age is coming, but we do not believe in the way that it will evolve or come about as taught in “The New Age Movement.”

 Sid:  Also, as you share that I think about some of the other related movements on planet earth like the people that are after peace, no war and they have these bumper stickers, is that tied in with it?

Mike:  Well, of course one of the basis tenants of the new age movement is the belief that all religions are different paths to the same god and you see a lot of bumper stickers promoting that idea that we can all live together having all the different religious symbols on the bumper sticker.  And I do believe that we need to tolerate one another’s’ difference of opinion to the degree that we still respect the person even if we don’t embrace the beliefs.  However, I do not believe as a Christian that you can synchronize or emerge all of these belief systems together.  But that’s a basic fundamental idea or concept in New Age.

 Sid:  Now what about disarmament, is that part of it in your opinion?

Mike:  Well certainly that will be part of the platform of the…

 Sid:  I mean, I remember when I interviewed you several years ago you you had a prophetic word that during the Obama administration there would be such a  proliferation of nuclear weapons and it such looks like that’s true and yet there’s a move for disarmament which means if you could trust everyone, everything would be fine.  But if you are dealing with liars as we are with many of these other countries I don’t think that it’s smart to disarm ourselves.

Mike:  Not that we would ever want a nuclear war or that God would want a nuclear war, but to disarm ourselves is to place ourselves in a vulnerable position.  I agree with you and the irony of the matter is that Obama has promoted, as part of his platform ridding not only our nation but other nations of nuclear weapons and thus hopefully making the world a safer place.  Yet what God told me is that during his administration that will increase; but see there’s three things Sid that are moving us toward a one world government.  Three forces that will provide the platform for the anti-Christ; one is economic, one is political, and the other is religious.  And the first is comprised of the elite banking societies that want a one-world currency and so forth, they want control of the world through finance.  The second, we can see that happening right before our eyes, individuals even in our government that are trying their best to dissolve our national sovereignty to blend us in with this new world order and that’s on both sides of the political spectrum, republican and democrats are working toward that end.  But the new age movement is that third leg or that third pillar that is pushing us toward a one world government because it provides the philosophy necessary to synchronize all these religions; because in the new age movement it pulls Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, all together into one.  And it says we are all in essence worshipping the same god and we are all basically saying the same thing.  Which sounds beautiful to the ear, but when you really inspect the doctrinal base of different religions you see how impossibly, illogical such a statement is.

Sid:  Well, you know Mike my heart in doing this book is I see it as so hugely evangelistic but I began to realize there are so many Christians that are involved in mixture and they don’t even know it.  For instance, your background before becoming a believer in the Messiah was in the area of yoga.  You taught at I believe it was four different universities; you had a couple a hundred students.  Today, knowing what you know about yoga would you be involved in it?

Mike:  Absolutely not!  Half of yoga is the most basic simple physical form of exercise in yoga but there are many reasons why I no longer do it.

 Sid:  Tell me a couple of major ones.

Mike:  Well, one of the major reasons is its spiritual roots are in Hinduism and it’s inextricable from Hinduism.  The main purpose for Hoffa-yoga is to prepare a person’s body and soul for something they call the awaken of the kundalini.  And the kundalini is a supposedly a coiled energy at the base of the spine and once it’s awakened it travels up through the spine and brings a person to enlightenment and is called, and now hold on to your seat, it’s called the serpent power.  That’s what kundalini means.

Sid:  But but but wait a second Mike, I have read that the exercise portion of yoga is very very healthy for an individual.  What if someone is that their goal…they’re not interested in these spiritual things, they just want health?

Mike:  Well, they’re putting themselves in a dangerous place though, if you walk into a studio where the statues of Buddha and Charisna and Shiva and pictures of gurus’, you may say well when they meditate, I’ll just say the Lord’s Prayer.  When they chant ohm, I’ll just think about the name of Jesus.  However, you are in an atmosphere which is impregnated with a demonic influence and you are positioning yourself in a very vulnerable place.  I have people call me all the time desperate for me to pray for them that got involved in just Hoffa-yoga but they started having these arousals of energy of suddenly surging through their bodies.

Sid:  But what if what if the teacher is even a church person?

Mike:  Well, this is something people don’t realize Sid, and I know it because I’m very much in communication with leaders in the industry, in the Christian fitness industry.  Most people don’t realize to be a Certified Yoga Teacher, even if it’s just plain old Hoffa-yoga, to be a Certified Yoga Teacher recognized by the yoga community you have to spend a certain amount of hours, I don’t remember what it is maybe a hundred, possibly two hundred hours studying under people who are given over to that far eastern mindset and studying Hindu scripture – debadas and so forth.  And in order to receive your certification you have to be immersed in Far East philosophy.  Very few people could do that without being tainted and what I warn people about is that if that yoga teacher is in any way given over to a New Age World view, even if they profess to be Christian, they believe all religions are different paths to the same god ect. ect; then by sitting underneath them and letting them dictate what you do and when you do it and yoga class you are submitting yourself to whatever spirit is in that room and whatever spirit…

 Sid:  And some of the articles that are in this book, I believe every Christian in America because I mean this is part of Satan’s end time strategy…

Sid:  My guest Todd White is red hot for the Messiah, that is normal and it’s so contagious.  As matter of fact I was telling Todd just before we got on the air, there is such a presence of God.  It’s literally like a river is pouring out of this interview right now.  And this river is healing wherever the river goes people are going to get healed.  Todd, tell me a bit about your background.

Todd:  At twelve years old I started using drugs and at eleven years old I was actually put in a boy’s home after my parents got divorced so I was in there for probably about six months and I started to use drug.  I was in there for about five and a half years; it was called the Masonic homes.  I was raised by the masons, by the Masonic organization.  I came out of there; I got kicked out when I was right before I was a senior in high school.

Sid:  What kind of drugs were you using?

Todd:  Well, I basically I started smoking marijuana in the beginning and then drinking of course was associated with that.  And then I did acid and mushrooms and just…started to use cocaine a little bit but…

Sid:  Talk about a sabotage.  Here you’re in an orphanage, now you’re into drugs, you didn’t stand a chance.

Todd:  Yeah, I didn’t stand a chance by the world’s standards, but Jesus had something else in mind and I just am so thankful for that.  I was sixteen and half I got kicked out of there; I came home got kicked out of my house, I was just in a real…I had trouble with authority and rebellion.  My stepdad and I didn’t get along very well, and he dared me one day, he said you would never make it in the Marine Corp.  He said there is no possible way you would ever make it and I showed him, I joined the Marine Corp.  Went through boot camp and did all right and about a year into the fleet I went to go home, they wouldn’t let me go home so I went home anyway.  It is not a good idea to join the Marine Corp with an authority complex, with an authority issue.  So actually took a bunch of friends and drove them out, stole some money from a home, drove them out to Colorado, went out there and became a ski bum for a little while.  God busted by the police one day, came in and arrested me, extradited me back to the Marine Corp.  I went back spent a bunch of time in the brig.  I was awaiting orders after I got out of the brig and I went AWOL again, I just didn’t want to hang out there so.

Sid:  Did anyone up until that point told you about the Lord?  Had you gone to Sunday school?

Todd:  Oh well sure, people had talked to me about God, but Sid the fact remains that if you can’t see Christ in somebody you don’t want what they have.  So I really didn’t see what I, I never really saw something that I really was attracted to in Christians.  And the Jesus that I knew about was the one that I was told about in Sunday school when I was really little.  And most of the people that talked to me about Christ actually walked out hypocrisy more than a love relationship with God; so I didn’t want what they had.  My friends on the street gave me more love than anybody inside of a church did.

Sid:  So you’re drifting lower and lower, what happened next?

Todd:  Yep, I went and was just extradited back again to the Marine Corp again.  I got out of there and then I went and came home and I got arrested because the charges that I’d stolen money had finally caught up to me back home.  I went to jail, I was in jail for awhile I have a felony rap sheet and a few years later I met a girl at a blind date at a bar.  And actually trick her into having a kid with me.  Kind of hid the drug addiction and after we had the baby about a year and half into our life she had found out about the drugs and she just told me she hated me constantly.  And I threatened actually to kill myself or to take her out if she ever left me.  It was really really really bad.  It was actually, I was like the devil’s number one guy.  I was destroying lives everywhere I went.  I was an open freight train for the kingdom of hell to destroy peoples’ lives including my girl friend, my daughter who only knew her dad as a drug addict for the first seven and half years of her life.  And I went to, one night I went out on the street and my girl friend chased me into town with my daughter in the back seat and she actually told me that you’re coming home and it’s 1:30, I didn’t have any money so I went and lost them down a back street and in section in New York City where I’m from.  I picked a kid up and when I had him in the car, he’s from New York City, he wasn’t from a small town, he’s from the big city.  And when he handed the drugs and I was hooked on crack at that point, it was about four or five years I was really hooked on crack at the end of this addiction.  This kid said he knew that I was a cop, I told him I was a cop, I didn’t have any money.  He handed me the drugs, I told him to step out of the car and put his hands on the hood and when he did I hit the gas and at that point he opened up a nine millimeter and unloaded it from ten feet away and I could literally see the gun blast from ten feet away.  And an audible voice spoke to me and said I took those bullets for you, are you ready to live for me yet?  And it was the voice from Heaven and I didn’t understand what it was.  I went and did the drugs and I didn’t get high.  I came home that night, my girl friend was up.

Sid:  Did you realize that you had had a supernatural shield from those bullets?

Todd:  Nope, I didn’t understand it, now I do looking back I know, but I didn’t have any idea I was still clueless.  But I knew that something needed to change and God had griped my heart in such a way that when I came home I told my girl friend I got to go.  She said you do because I hate you.  And three days later I went to a program called Teen Challenge, I went to Teen Challenge I was in the program for two months.  They told me I couldn’t see my girl friend, because in Teen Challenge you can’t see your mate unless you are married.  I could see my kid in four hours once a month.  I went into Teen Challenge and when I was up there I had submitted myself to the Word of God and even though I did not understand because I had ADHD so I couldn’t understand any words that I was reading in a regular book, let alone the Bible.  But I knew that if I pressed in that someone I knew that I saw Christ in, His name is Dan, he’s a spiritual father of mine.  I saw Christ in him and he told me that if you seek Him, you’ll find Him.  So every morning I’d wake up early at this place and I’d tuck away for an hour and open up the Bible; I didn’t understand anything I read.  I never read a book before in my whole life.  I actually went the whole way through school, never really read, I just kind of skimmed to find reports and take notes and different things.  But the Bible actually started to open up to me, I read a scripture in James and it says if I lack wisdom ask God and He’ll give it to me.  And I said, that’s it God I’m wisdom less.  And then all of a sudden little bits and pieces started to unload.  And then I had three dreams, because I had nightmares the whole time in there.  At the end of a two month period of time, I had met a homeless guy across the street at Teen Challenge and he had told me that I had a demon and I didn’t know him and he didn’t know me, but he shared with me the gospel and I asked him why he wasn’t preaching in a church.  And he told me twenty years ago told him to pick up his cross and follow Him.  And he’s been pushing a shopping cart full of Bibles going from Mission to Mission across America preaching the gospel to anyone who would listen.  He said, I’m going to pray for you and this thing is leaving you and it is never going to touch you again.  So he prayed for him and I didn’t feel anything different, but that night when I went to bed instead of nightmares I had an encounter in a valley where the valley shook and I thought these demons were coming after me and I prayed for the first time.  God help!  And all of a sudden a voice came, it makes me cry because it is so real and He said, “Do not fear, I’ll never leave you or forsake you.”  And all of a sudden, I woke up and I went into the prayer room at 5:00 in the morning before the day started and I opened right up to Psalm 23.  And I didn’t know what I was opening, I just opened the Bible opened the Bible opened supernaturally and I read “Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil,” and I knew that it was God.  But I wasn’t going to leave because Teen Challenge is a year program.  So the second night I had a same dream, the third night I had the same exact dream; and that third night “He told me go home restore friends and family.”  So I packed my stuff up, it’s ten months early, I called my buddy Dan, I told him, I said I’m ready to leave now.  He said, “Todd is this God.”  I said, “I met Jesus and he said, “I’m on my way.”  He came and picked me up and that was four and a half years ago and I’ve only known what I’ve known not because I’ve been taught by the church, not because I was raised in the church, but because I have a personal relationship with Holy Spirit.

Sid:  Wait, wait tell me about you girlfriend and daughter, what happened there?  I’m getting there. 

Todd:  I came home and my girl friend had come to Christ when I was in Teen Challenge and four days later in the middle of a church service and I got married.  And we have been together for, oh she is so amazing…we’ve been together for thirteen, about thirteen and one half years.  I have a twelve year old daughter; I have a three year old daughter. 

Sid:  Now with your twelve year old being raised with a father that was an atheist drug addict, how she turned out?

Todd:  Yeah, she actually, God for my wife and four my twelve year old, God has supernaturally erased our past one hundred percent so that there is not even a memory of drug addiction, or atheism in our lives.  He supernaturally has grafted into our DNA and I believe that DNA stands for the divine nature of Abba; grafted into our DNA the fact that we’re brand new creation and all things become new and old has passed away.

Sid:  Now you have a view different than most Christians I know, you’re shocked if someone isn’t healed when you pray for them.

Todd:  That’s right.

Sid:  Most Christians are shocked if someone is healed when they pray for them.  Ha-ha how come, you’re normal?

Todd:  I don’t have any of the upbringings and honestly when I look at the life of Jesus I don’t ever, because Jesus is perfect theology.   Whether its Old Testament of New Testament Jesus is perfect theology.  So if you can’t see it in the life of Jesus you have a right to question what you’re believing.  He’s perfect theology in every way and I never, ever, ever see Jesus coming up with any reason why they weren’t, He only had the reason why they were and why they were.  And every time He touched someone, every time it happened minus none.  And He told us to walk, in 1^st John it says that if any man, it said abide in Him he also aught walk just as He walked.

Sid:  Whoa, our time is slipping away.

Sid:  We want everyone everywhere that was listening on yesterday’s broadcast can’t wait for Jim Hockaday to continue this story.  You see he was teaching healing at Kenneth Hagen’s Rhema‘s Bible College, Coordinator of Prayer and Healing School, and when he first started you told me Jim on yesterday’s broadcast people were dying.  No one was getting healed.  What was going on?

Jim:  It was so terrible and obviously we didn’t advertise that particular part of the ministry at that time or we would have never had anybody come.

Sid:  I’m sure.

Jim:  But, you know, I was preaching and preaching and preaching and I mean I was a born preacher so it is not as though I stood up and stumbled around.  I mean I preached fire and you know fiery messages.  But, what I was preaching was a message about you will recover if you will just believe.  Now, in one sense there is nothing wrong with that but on the other hand there is no expectation to get anything.  And so I went before the Lord and after three months of seeing such failure I said, “Lord now this is what you called me to do.  But I have to have success or I can’t go on.  So here’s two things that I’ve noticed.  1.  Its not the peoples fault; And 2. It’s not your fault.  There is only one left and that’s me.  If you’ll change me we’ll see the miraculous and from that moment the Lord began to put me on a trail and I began to study the blood covenant and in the blood covenant I began to see that the blood that was shed was God’s signet that if you would trust Him wholeheartedly He would back you up.  And the very week that we began to preach that, which was now over into the first of the year of 1995 in January.  The very first week miracles began to pop and happen like you can’t believe.  I had a tumor disappear under the palm of my hand.  We saw ears pop open.  We had people jumping up in the middle of the service going “My God the pain’s gone, the pain’s gone.”  The arthritis is gone, we had so many things happening that one of the individuals that was a head usher who had been there for six years previous, said in this one week alone.  I have seen more happen than in the six years put together.

Sid:  What do you do with someone that is in your healing school and they get the revelation it is finished and they rest in that but they haven’t had the manifestation of healing?  What about, I’m going to make it even more complex.  What about a woman that has a tumor that’s malignant in her breast and she believes what the Bible says with every fiber of her being.  She knows that it is finished with every fiber of her being but the symptoms are still there and the doctor says you need chemo and you need surgery.  What would recommend this person do?

Jim: Well, alright that’s a good question and I’m going to approach it in a couple of different ways to do it.  #1.  If you get somebody in the environment of God is flowing.  The anointing of God as we know in Proverbs Chapter four Solomon made this statement:  To give your attention unto the Lord incline your ear unto His sayings, let them not department from your eyes for they are life to them that find them and health or healing to all their flesh.  And that word really means a remedy or a medicine.  So if you’re in an environment where the anointing is flowing we would just continue to saturate that body with the anointing until that tumor began to disappear and it would.  It’s just a law of spiritual… 

Sid:  By the way, the anointing has been flowing from the moment you started speaking.  So we’re in an environment like that right now.  But most people that go to most churches are not in an environment like that.

Jim:  No, they’re not and that’s where I’ll say my second point is what we’re teaching people as were working with some of the groups that we’re teaching that we’re actually sending into the hospital to lay hands on the sick.  We’re teaching them to become the object of someone’s faith.  In other words with that individual, that lady if she said I totally believe that Jesus finished the work for me.  I know that I’m healed according to scripture and yet I still don’t seem to have a breakthrough and the tumor disappearing.  Then I would step in to become the object of her faith.  You say, how would you do that?  I would release the anointing on her with my words.  And I would probably say something like this.  Dear lady in the next 24 hours that tumor will soften and will go down a half of what it is right now.  Come back and talk to me tomorrow.  Well, what do you mean you would say that?  Well, I’m authorized.  In other words, Jesus when he spoke in Mark Chapter one.  People marveled and said, with such authority this man speaks that we’ve not heard.

Sid:  But I always thought that he had heard that specific word and then he would speak it.  You’re telling me you’re speaking it from the revelation of the Word.

Jim:  Well, that’s exactly right, and so whether it’s a Rhema of the Spirit in other words a spoken word of revelation; or it’s a revelation based on what God’s spoke on someone else.  In other words, I get a revelation on what Jesus said.  Well it was a Rhema to Him but to me it is the logos.  The Word of God it still has the power of the Holy Spirit drenched all over that Word and that’s one of the benefits of having a relationship with the Spirit.  When you hear the Word of God the Holy Ghost will take the word and make it so real to your spirit and bring revelation to your mind that when you release the same word that was spoken even in the scriptures it will bring the same result.

Sid:  And you know, one of the things I love about the Seminar which actually was taught at Rhema Bible College that were making available this week; the six CDs Seminar entitled “How to develop intimacy with the Holy Spirit,” is you show people how they can be in the presence of God all the time; in the presence of the Holy Spirit all the time moving in the anointing.

Jim:  Well, when we have an opportunity like you’ve just mentioned where there’s more than one day involved and you can get in there and not have to be so strict with just the teaching but then the demonstration is available, at that moment when people see someone begin to demonstrate the presence of the Lord, it will make an impact on their heart.  In fact, I’ll give you this one real quick little illustration.  We were in prayer school one day, and we were singing a song called “Praying the Power Down.”  Well it was a nice song, had a nice little beat, and we were singing it; it was the first time we had sang the song.  We were kind of wearing the song out after about fifteen minutes of singing the same song.  I stepped up the plate form and just had the band stop right in the middle of the people getting ready to sing the next verse.  And they all looked at me and I said to them and so how long do we do this until we are sure that at the power is here?  And what’s it going to look like when it is?  And no one said anything.  Now we had three hundred young people, you know three hundred participates.  I dare to believe it’s here right now.  So I call everyone in this room that’s got a tumor in your body come down here and I’ll demonstrate to you that that power’s in this room.  And we had eight people that came down, six of those tumors left instantaneously and the other two people; I wouldn’t let them go until it left and we kept on laying hands on them three or four times until their tumor disappeared as well.

Sid:  I believe that when people listen to your Seminar, I mean you have so many suggestions of how to have greater intimacy with the Holy Spirit.  I’ll tell you one that you made this suggestion and it just like a light bulb.  I had actually moved into the realm of praying in supernatural languages, in tongues with either not thinking about anything or thinking about the business I’m doing during the day, but not really thinking exclusively about the Lord.  And what a difference to focus on Jesus when you’re praying in tongues as opposed to doing it mindlessly or just thinking of your laundry list.

Jim:  Well, that’s a really good point and I’ll take this moment just to embellish that to say that many times we use our time of prayer in the car because when we are driving alone we got those few moments and we’re just praying the Spirit.  But there really is something to be said of having a still time.  Be still and know that I’m God where you get alone, and you really can.  Just focus on a relationship with Jesus.  The more centered it is to have your relationship on Jesus the Messiah and the greater results you’ll always have.  And when you begin to acknowledge Him that’s when the Holy Spirit will, one of His jobs is to reveal, transmit or to show Jesus to your life.

Sid:  I have got an inclination from the Holy Spirit that on tomorrows broadcast we are going to pray for tumors and these tumors are going to disappear.  You have your faith there Jim for that?

Jim:  Yes Sir, and do I have just one second to release someone that has congestive heart failure that’s listening and I don’t want you to try to do anything but lift up your arms right now and like a sponge out in a rainstorm just soak this up.  That in the wonderful name of Jesus the power of God massages that heart and it becomes normal and it becomes well this day.  That testimony will come to this broadcast and it will magnify Jesus our Lord.

Sid:  The presence of God is so strong Jim and here’s what you know and I know when you know the truth from the word of God and you are in that presence of God all things are possible for  But for the person that said, but I’m not in the presence of God that much.  Well you’re in it right now and wait till you get these six CDs on “How to Develop Intimacy with the Holy Spirit.  You’ll begin to hear God and you’ll begin to pray more effectively in the Holy Spirit.  You’ll literally get a jump start the things of God and the things of the Spirit, you need it.  And you’re going to find through this intimacy that all of your five spiritual senses are going to just be activated like never before.  But the greatest of all is you’re not going to be working out of a formula.  That’s religion.  You’re going to be working out of intimacy with God on what He has given to you and as you receive it, you’ll be able to give it to other people.  You’ll be empowered to release because of the anointing on t his seminar to release what’s already inside of you.

 

Sid: Bill Wiese was chosen by God to spend 23 minutes in Hell as a non-believer and report to the world of its reality. He also was told about when Jesus would return. Next on this edition of It’s Supernatural.

Can ancient secrets of the supernatural be rediscovered? Do angels exist? Is there life after death? Are healing miracles real? Can you get supernatural help from another dimension? Has the future been written in advance? Sid Roth has spent 30 years researching the strange world of the supernatural. Join Sid on this edition of It’s Supernatural.

Sid: Hello. Sid Roth. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. Do you believe in a literal Hell? I mean, one where there’s suffering and sulfur and torment, and demons with pitchforks. Well a survey was done in America by Barnum and he found that two-thirds of the people do not believe in Hell with suffering. And as a matter of fact, it’s not a popular subject. When was the last time you went to a house of worship and they spoke about Hell? Well God had to take things into His own hands and He showed a man that has impeccable character, a man that has never been into drugs or alcohol, that has a good marriage, a solid citizen. I even looked at his references and the former retired chief of police that he’s known for decades gave him a character witness. I mean, if I was in Hollywood and casting someone to see Hell, and come back and report on it this is the man I would have picked. We went out on the streets to find out people believe in a Hell where there’s suffering and sulfur, and demons. You’ll be amazed at what we found out.

Man 1: No, I don’t believe there’s a Hell. You know, God loves everybody, so He wants everybody to live up with Him in Heaven.

Woman 1: Hell? Sometimes I think Hell is on Earth with all the random acts of violence and the wars, and the terrorism that goes on. I think Hell is here.

Man 2: No, I don’t believe there’s a Hell at all. I think that’s something that the church made up to control and manipulate people. Everyone’s going to go to Heaven because God’s a good God who loves us all. As long as we live a good life and are good people, we’re all going to get to Heaven.

Woman 2: Yeah, I believe there’s a Hell. I believe it’s a place where people go if they don’t ask God to forgive them of their sins.

Sid: Hello. Sid Roth here with Bill and Annette Wiese. And Bill, before you had, and get this, he had a literal guided tour of Hell. Before that happened, what did you think about Hell?

Bill: Well Sid, I never really thought about Hell. I had been a Christian for 40 years. This happened 12 years ago. But I never really studied the topic. I had no interest in it. My wife and I never see dark movies or entertain anything evil like that. But I knew it was fiery and that was as much as I knew. So I’ve learned a lot since then.

Sid: Okay. I’m going to take you to that date, November 23rd, 1998, and you go to bed, you get up, at what time, three in the morning?

Bill: I got up at three o’clock just to get a glass of water.

Sid: How did you know it was three?

Bill: I looked at the clock.

Sid: Okay. You get the glass of water. What happened to you?

Bill: Suddenly, Sid, I found myself, I was being pulled out of my body, like this was an out-of-body experience, and I had never had one before. But I was pulled out of my body and I found myself falling through the air and tumbling down this long tunnel. And I entered into this open cavern area and hit this stone floor, and I found myself in a prison cell with rough hue stonewalls and bars. I was actually in a prison, but it looked like a dungeon, filthy, stinking, smoke-filled prison.

Sid: Did you realize where you were?

Bill: I was fully awake and cognizant. I was not dreaming.

Sid: No, I understand. But did you know you were in Hell?

Bill: Yes. The heat was far beyond the ability to sustain life, so I knew immediately I was in Hell. And there were demonic creatures in this cell with me. They were pacing like a caged animal, real ferocious, vicious demeanor, like no creature I had ever seen.

Sid: Before this, were you one prone to visions and things like this?

Bill: No. I’ve never had a vision before. And like I said, I was fully awake and cognizant. I was actually in this place, Sid. And to see these demons pacing in the cell. They had extreme hatred for God and then they directed that hatred towards me. I wondered why. What have I done to them? But the one picked me up, threw me into the wall, tremendous strength in these demons.

Sid: Wait a second now. You’re a Christian.

Bill: Right.

Sid: You’re not supposed to be in Hell. Didn’t you remind them? I would have.

Bill: Well Sid, the only way a Christian could see Hell is in a vision. This was a vision, and God hid it from my mind that I was a Christian. He blocked it from me. There’s many scriptures I could give you for that. But the purpose was so I could experience what an unsaved person would experience in Hell.

Sid: Everything happening all around you so fast was going on. When you came up with your first question to yourself, what was it?

Bill: Well why am I here? Why am I here? How did I get here? And I didn’t understand any of this. Everything was explained on the way back, but at this moment, all I was experiencing was the pain and the torment that these demons were inflicting.

Sid: You actually could feel this?

Bill: Yes, I could feel it. Now I understood that most of the feeling was being blocked and God explained on the way back that He hid, blocked most of the pain, but He did allow me to feel some of the pain so I could relay to people it’s not metaphorical or allegorical. It’s real literal pain you’re going to feel in Hell. The amount I felt was enough.

Sid: What was the worst experience you had on this guided tour of Hell?

Bill: Knowing that I’ll never get out, the hopelessness. You see, that’s what God wanted me to experience what they feel there. See, if I was there as a Christian, which I was, but He hid it from me, I would know I’m getting out of here. Thank God, I’m getting out of here. I don’t have to stay here. But as an unsaved person, I understood I’ll never get out. Ten million years will go by, I’m still there. And that’s the worse part, knowing there’s no one going to come rescue you. There’s no cavalry coming over the hill, there’s no angels to protect you. You are lost and in torment, and hopeless forever. That was the worse part.

Sid: Tell me some of the things you saw with your eyes in Hell.

Bill: I saw these demons, reptilish in appearance, bumps and scales all over their body, huge jaws, sunken eyes, claws about a foot long. These particular two were about 12 or 13 feet tall. That sounds like an exaggeration, but there’s even scripture for that. But they tormented me. They dug their claws in my chest and just tore the flesh open. I couldn’t believe I was still alive through this. The flesh is hung like ribbons. I noticed there was no water or blood.

Sid: But you see, there was a reason that the Messiah took him on a guided tour of Hell. And when you find out this reason, I believe it’s going to change your life forever. Don’t go away. We’ll be right back.

Sid:  I have a man that is a perfect one new man; his name is Dr. Renny McLean.  Why do I say that he is a perfect one new man?  Because his father was Gentle and his mother Jewish, I’m talking to a one new man Renny.  But you the one thing I want you to teach me and will let our audience, our Mishpochah ease drop on.  The one thing, Renny is and when I study healing over all these years, if I could only have one ingredient to emphasize for healing it will be what you teach and that is worship.  Now you came from a family where your mother being Jewish, you should have never understood these things; but she had a visitation from the Lord; became a believer in Jesus and you learned about worship from an early age.  Tell me what you learned as a young child about worship.

Renny:  I learned Sid, that when every time I worship the presence of God would come and I would know it, because I began to understand, you know I was doing things in my early years that I didn’t understand till years after.  For example, this is what I understand now, what I was doing then and this is what I understood that worship is the affirmation that God is present.  And when God is present, anything can happen and that’s a simple truth, but it’s very profound.  Worship demands God to be present.  And I notice that when we would worship, the atmosphere would change.  People would change, the glory would come in and things would actually just begin to happen.

Sid:  But, let me ask you this question for some people that are listening right now.  They were not blessed with having a family like you did in the way you were raised and they hear worship they think of magnificent singing in the church, but they’ve never really felt much and they certainly never seen the need when they’re outside of church to be worshiping God.  What would you say to them?

Renny:  Well, let’s break it down so that the whole people get this. First of all this is what happens, when we worship, when we worship the presence of God comes.  When the presence of God comes people are in harmony with their creator and so because t there is that harmony between man and God then what you are suppose to be is what you become.  So that’s why you become healed, that’s why you become delivered, that’s why you become prosperous because whatever God touches you know, he imparts himself.  And so Sid I learned a long time ago that at times we enter the presence of God, but people do not know what to do in the presence.  There are times when the presence of God comes all we can do is just lift our hands.  And sometimes you can’t say nothing, because there’s nothing to say because He is just God.  You just lift your hands.  You can lift your hands right now and just acknowledge that He is present.

Sid:  Let’s do it, lift your hands right now, everyone listening to me, unless you’re driving and then let’s not tempt the Lord.  Lift your hands up.  Alright I have my hands lifted up, be my coach Renny.

Renny:  Yeah, Lord we just worship you now.  We acknowledge your presence, we declare you our king; we declare you our Lord, we declare you our Savior.  You are present right now and when you are present Lord there is nothing lacking when you are present.   That means healing is present, oh My God, that means healing is present, that means prosperity is present.  Everything you are is present because when you come there is nothing of yourself you leave behind.  And so Lord, we lift our hands to you and we say thank you Lord!  Thank you Lord!  We just need to thank Him.

Sid:  Thank you Lord, thank you, thank you for your goodness, Lord if I didn’t feel anything right now I would thank you as much as I’m thanking you right now. But however I do feel something.  They’re some people that don’t feel a thing and if they would only know that you receive their thanks whether they feel anything or not and you are pleased by them thanking you right now.  Thank you Lord.  Bless you Lord.

Renny:  Yes, we thank you.  You see Sid, what I just heard in the Spirit He said when were thanking Him we’re worshipping Him, we’re sowing to the Spirit, we’re sowing to the Spirit.  And you know the longer we do it you know, the greater the seed then God pours it back in the form of harvest.

Sid:  You know I remember many years ago Renny, when I became a new believer there was a man that was very popular in the Full Gospel Businessman circle of speaking; his name is Norvel Hayes.  And if I remember right, he had five million dollar corporations and that impressed everyone back then.  But this is what he use to say, every morning I just spend a lot of time thanking God.  I never really understood what he was saying until now; you understand what he was saying.

Renny:  Yes, yes, definitely yes because Sid if you think about it if we submit to Him you can’t submit and not yield.  It is in the yielding feel His presence.  It is in the yielding we feel His power, it is in the yielding we feel His glory; and the atmosphere changes; the atmosphere becomes light.  The atmosphere sometimes can become heavy with His presence.  But burdens become lifted; people become free; and all of a sudden you’re beginning to think on a different plain because you are in the presence of God Almighty.  And when God Almighty is recognized as God Almighty and we affirm His presence, I mean to think about it right now you can be in the worse place you can imagine and yet the minute you start to say Lord I worship You.  You’re demanding His presence to be with you right there and then.

Sid:  So someone could be listening to us right now in prison and be freer than some others that are listening to us and their not…their just spectators, they’re not entering in; they’re in more prison than someone in a prison.

Renny:  One hundred percent, one hundred percent because God has come to them by reason of their worship.  He changes atmosphere, he changes lives, he touches all kinds of things; I mean it’s incredible; some of the most incredible things we have ever seen Sid is when we get people to the revelation of worship.

Sid:  How does someone lose four dress sizes in worship?  Explain it to me.

Renny:  Well, I’ll tell you how it happens because we’ve seen it so many times; I mean I need to really start saying a lot of things we’ve seen.  Cause we were one of the first folk to see it.  And what we found Sid, I can tell you the first time I ever saw it, we were worshiping God it was in the middle of a worship service and the glory of the Lord was present and this lady began to just worship worship she wasn’t thinking about it.  Now, this is something Sid I think that is really coming into my spirit as I talk to you right now.  Part of the problem with God’s people is is that we are thinking about our issues more than we are God.

Sid:  Okay, listen I’m guilty of that, coach me.  How can I stop it?

Renny:  Because we make our problems our idols when we…

Sid:  Oh, you just did it to me, you’re telling me that’s my idol, I’m dropping it.  Ha ha

Renny:  So the secret of it is is that we reached to a stage that where we literally taken ownership of it instead of letting go, you can’t let God until you let go.  To let go you let God be God.  And the woman, all she did was just worship.  She wasn’t thinking about her problem and its interesting God, when she was worshiping God, God was thinking of her.  Isn’t that incredible Sid?  When we were not thinking of Him, he was thinking of us.  My goodness —all of a sudden as she’s in service now and she just begins to worship God with no agenda, she just began to worship and as she began to worship it just began to just drop.  She couldn’t understand it her cloths just began to drop; she had to hold up her dress.

Sid:  Now, I mean you must have been shocked when this first started happening.

Renny:  Well, I’m going to be honest with you Sid; I was very shocked because I’d never heard of that before.  I mean I have seen people who have had a tumor you know, you know when people use to tumor years ago it can make a woman look bigger than normal; a tumor in certain places.  So I have seen God do those miracles, but to actually see weight loss, I mean I can tell you when we first saw it it was in 1998, you know and I can tell you; I can remember it as if it were yesterday.  This is how it was, it was in the atmosphere of worship, because when you are in the presence of God, if you think about it, when you are in the presence of God and you’re really seeing Jesus you are not really thinking about you.  You can’t be thinking of you because He has to become more real to you than you are.  And when we…and when that happens you can’t think of yourself.  Well, you just think of worshiping Him, because that is all we can do is just worship Him and that’s when the supernatural as it were becomes natural.

Sid:  It’s as if a Christian believer in Messiah is incomplete and a Jewish believer in the Messiah is incomplete.  But when the two spiritual DNA’s come together it makes a full dwelling place for God and forms the one new humanity; it’s a new species of being that has never existed previously.  And one of the things that concerned me and concerns my guest, Peter Horrobin and I’m speaking to him by way of telephone at his home and I believe it is Lancaster, England. 

Peter:  It is in deed and it’s great to speak to you Sid.

Sid:  Well, it’s been too long Peter, but one of my concerns and I know one of your concerns is when someone has a marvelous experience with the Lord and gets saved, it seems as though they carry the baggage that they had from before being saved, some they get rid of but they still have a lot of t his baggage.  And that’s never really addressed that much by the church and in fact, Jesus said, not to make converts, but to make disciples.  And what you teach is a missing element in what is taught in most discipleship that I know of in most churches.

Peter:  Well, I think that it is an absolutely vital element.  When Jesus was giving advice to the disciples in how to pray.  One of the things He said in what we call the Lord’s Prayer is that Your Kingdom come on earth and so often we look at becoming a believer and receiving Yeshua becoming born again of the Spirit of God as an escape as it were when we die into Heaven.  But when Jesus told the disciples to pray, He said Your kingdom come on earth.  Now kingdom means, the reign of a King and where the reign of the King is in place you have kingdom authority.  And when Jesus ministered healing to people he was ministering in the authority which He had because He was above all powers, above all other spiritual beings and He had absolute authority.  And so He told the disciples, you go and do the same.  You go and minister in my name, with my authority and you bring the Kingdom of God, the  power of the Spirit of God on earth to those that are in need. 

Sid:  Peter, the question that many good believers ask is “I know God can heal, I know God wants to heal, but how come it’s been year after year after year and I’ve prayed and I’ve stood by faith and people tell me I don’t have enough faith, but why am I not healed?”  People are saying that all over.  You have the answers.

Peter:  Yeah, many people are looking for healing, but you know one of the ladies that we prayed for over a long period of time and she came to a place half way through that process of healing.  She came with physicatric care to us originally and she got to a stage when she realized that she wouldn’t get any further until her relationship with Jesus was more important to her than her healing.  And many people…

Sid:  And you know, I don’t hear that enough, all I hear is you don’t have enough faith.  You have to mediate more on the promises. 

Peter:  Yeah, but somebody gets stressed up saying oh, you haven’t got enough faith.  But you see when we have that relationship with Jesus that’s really intimate and we want Him above all things and we want Him more than our healing, then actually He can speak to us about the things that need healing.  And many of the symptoms that people struggle with are caused by things that their not addressing.  So they want the symptoms dealt with, but they’re not addressing the real cause and sometimes deep in the heart there’s bitterness and unforgiveness, their relationships have gone sour.  There’s traumas they have experienced in the past and in a sense they buried them and say oh that’s the past, that’s the past I just want to be healed now.  And yet there is a link between the things that have happened to us and the present circumstances.  And yes, Jesus and His anointing could overcome all of that, but actually He wants us to exercise our own choice to walk in His way, to want what He gives us to give us the freedom that only He can give and that means we got to actually apply the truth of the Word of God in our lives.  In John 8:31 Jesus is talking to his disciples and He said the truth will set you free, but that sentence the truth will set you free is part of a much longer sentence and it begins with the word is.  And when you have the word is it means there’s something that you got to do in order to come into line in what’s being said.  And so He said if you hold to my teaching you’re really my disciples, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.  And so many of the people that are looking for healing, they’re looking to Jesus to come and heal the symptoms, oh Lord, increase my faith.  But actually they’re ignoring some of the teaching that Jesus gave.  And if they obey the teachings then they become disciples.  Then they know the truth and then they will discover the truth will set them free.

Sid:  You know I am so excited over your series that we are going to be making available, obviously a lot of other people are excited because you have twenty healing centers around the world and it’s growing all the time.  The thing that I want people to understand is how God hand trained you to disciple others so that they could be whole, so that they could fulfill their destiny.  I think that it’s kind of neat at four years old, your mother couldn’t find you one day; you were standing on a bucket preaching to a group of kids at four years old.  I was not thinking about preaching to a group of kids, especially being Jewish, but go ahead.

Peter:  Yeah, well I don’t think I went out to find a congregation, but I learned by watching my father and then in my heart I knew that what He was saying was true and so I gathered all the kids together and I began to tell them the same stories that my father was telling.  And when I went missing, all the other kids in the road were missing as well so there was a group of mothers all looking for their lost children and they discovered them all listening to me at the age of four. 

Sid:  And then you were restoring a sports car.  This was in about 1970 and you heard the audible voice of God which set almost in stone the course of your life, tell me about that.

Peter:  You know Sid, God speaks to you in the ordinary as well as in the spiritual and I think sometimes we try to divide the spiritual from the secular, but actually God doesn’t divide those at all.  Everything He created and where ever we are, we are in Him.  And so I was thinking about to rebuild an old sports car and when I got the car stripped down to the bare metal of the steel gutters, the chasse on which the car was built I saw that it was bent and you can’t drive a car with a bent chasse, you can’t stop it properly, you can’t steer it and I was in my mind twenties and I began to cry at the time.  Aw, I’ll never be able to rebuild this lovely old car and God was there right with me in the garage.  I didn’t expect Him, it was a shock and He spoke right into my spirit and He said, you could restore this broken car, but I can restore broken lives.  Then He asked me a question.  Which is more important?  I wanted to say that the car was more important, because I had put a lot of work into it; I knew that restoring broken lives was what God was putting into my spirit really for my personal destiny.  I’d been looking for it for years.

Sid:  But then, a few years later it got even more specific, you were helping a woman that was very, very distressed and you heard again from God.  Tell me about that.

Peter:  Yeah, I recently had been baptized in the Holy Spirit that God had come upon me in His spirit very much like it was at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2; I felt the fire of God burning within me.  And then shortly after that I was asked to help a lady who was very distressed.  She was crying, she couldn’t get her words out, she couldn’t express what her problem was and as I looked at her, God spoke to me right in my spirit and said, this woman is being sexually abused by a lodger in her own home and she’s too ashamed to tell you about it.  So you tell her that you know what her problem is.  I was quite embarrassed; I thought I can’t do this.  And yet I saw the distress in the woman’s face and I thought I am going to half to risk this, so this is my faith to actually risk telling this woman what God was saying.  I thought, if I got this wrong, this is going to be terrible, but it was right and every word I said she said was absolutely correct.  And she began a road to healing that night by forgiving the man who had abused her.  And I learned a huge lesson that night to listen to the voice of God and obey Him and Jesus said, if you love me you will obey me.  And I really loved Jesus and I went out on a limb in faith and said, okay Lord I’m going to do this and it was the beginning for me; all that vision for the car coming to fruition.  On the way home that night, God spoke again right into my spirit and said, I want you to spend the rest of your life bring healing to those in need and teaching others how to do it.  And actually that is the only reason that I’m talking to you today, Sid.

Sid:  Well, you have a supernatural gift to make these truths so clear and people go to your seminars at these centers all over the world and other places, but most people can’t do that and that’s why I’m so excited.  We have one of your series it’s called “The Freedom Series” that we’re making available and it covers areas that many Christians are familiar with but areas that most Christians don’t have a clue about.  And some of the areas that people have problems in like for instance you teach about freedom from trauma.  You teach about, freedom in your relationships and how you’re literally controlled by the past thru ungodly soul ties.  You teach about freedom from fear, you teach about people that have had these traumas like in a war situation or such as a situation or such as a situation the woman you just spoke about.  And then you show people how to get free, and once their free they walk into their destiny. 

Sid:  Now there’s an area that is not spoken about a lot and yet when you read the New Testament you see at least a third of Jesus’ Ministry was involved in this area.  And I think that one of reasons people don’t talk about it a lot is there’s a fear.  And I think the reason they have they have the fear is because of the devil.  The subject I’m talking about is deliverance and I’ve read a book, actually I was on my way to Israel and I started reading a book and I couldn’t put it down because there were such nuggets and such information about how to be the head and not the tail when it comes to deliverance and so many areas that people are affecting in by these spirits.  You know, you think in terms of just physical healing but it’s got to do with almost every problem and my guest would say it has to do with every problem you’re facing in life.  And there is a wonderful solution and fear should not even be in the acquasion when you realize who you are in the Messiah.  My guest, Mel Bond and Mel I’m really fascinated by the fact that in October of 1973 when you had your first vision of Jesus.  You got an introduction to the demonic tell me about that.

Mel:  Okay, well it was in 1973 in October and basically what happened is I went to sleep at night and I went into a dream and is you study the Bible real close you find that visions of the night and dreams are synonymous terms and so many people miss some real rich things of God because of the fact that they don’t realize that there are some dreams that are God ordained visions, spiritual encounters.  And so that’s what took place that I had this dream, vision, spiritual encounter and I saw Jesus.  He took me by the right hand He said, I want to take you some place and we walked through this large cave and I’ll never forget this throughout eternity and I remember looking up at Jesus.  I’m about 5’10” and so I would say He is about 6’1” or 6’2”or something like that and we began to walk through this cave and it was huge; it was absolutely huge, I won’t go into all the details of it, but I couldn’t even see the end of it and it looked like it might have been as much as a quarter of a mile wide maybe half mile wide, full of the most hideous demons you could ever imagine.  And it made me think of when I had this experience of why that people that take drugs and get really wiped out physically, why they die and I’m convinced because they see in the spirit world, because I have talked to a lot of those people that have come out and they see things and their seeing in the spirit world; and the spirit world the demonic spirit world is horrifying and so they die of fright.  And I would have, I’m a very brave person always have been, but this was horrifying.  It would scare you to death to see just one of these demons, their so hideous and they have a promotion of fear.

Sid:  Now, were you fearful?

Mel:  Absolutely, I absolutely was and there were just thousands of them and the noises, just the noise alone would scare someone to death and then to look at them if you only seen them and didn’t hear them it would scare you to death.  And satan is a demon of fear, his world is the world is the world of the fearful, it’s a fearful place.  And so anyway…

Sid:  And isn’t that the opposite of the realm were suppose to be in, the realm of faith in God’s Word?  It’s as if fear kind of neutralizes that.

Mel:  Yeah, absolutely that is the reason why I think the devil works overtime on getting ministries and people who walk in walk in love because if we walk in love love torments the devil and perfect love casteth out fear.  You know we find in 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 it talks about the nine gifts of the Spirit.  You’ve got enough faith to move a mountain, but all of this is in vain if you don’t walk in love.  And so the devil knows if he would fight the nine gifts of the Spirit that he’d have, you know he’d have nine fights on his battle, but if he would just fight us in love then all of the gifts of the Spirit are of no avail.   And so that’s his major target is to get people not to walk in God’s unconditional love.

Sid:  Okay, so you’re in this scene, I mean it sounds horrific you’re surrounded; it’s almost being in a circus of demons.  You are surrounded with all of these demons and their screaming and there yelling and what happens next?

Mel:  Well, this one particular demon that was probably I’d say he’s probably at least seven foot tall and if I was an artist I could still draw him.  And he was extremely hideous, the most hideous, the meanest and one that you would fear the most and I could remember he had real long fingers; I don’t know I’m guessing maybe eight or ten inches long something like that with fingernails probably four inches long and they were curved.  And he come running at me and swinging his hands in front of my face and it was like fractions of inches from striking my face and clawing my eyes out and ripping my face apart.  And when he immediately did that I felt Jesus grip my right hand because He had hold of my right hand with His left hand and I immediately looked up and then He spoke to me and he says the rest of your life you’re going to go down corridors like this that you are going to experience demonic forces; that never be afraid I’ll always be with you; and when he said that then the vision was gone.

Sid:  And since that time it seems as though your spiritual senses have been refined to such a point that you can see the invisible world and feel it and smell it.

Mel:  That’s right, that’s right and Sid I’m not saying this to be boastful or try to promote the fact I’m some kind of spiritual celebrity or something.  That I’m absolutely convinced that all of the gifts of the Spirit are for the entire body of Christ; they just don’t know it.  And I believe that I can teach people, I’m thoroughly convinced because it’s in the Bible and teach them to function with the gift of Discerning of spirits and that’s what this is to be able to with the five physical senses to be duplicated in the spiritual world and into the spirit world.  And so maybe by me talking about it they might be able to pick up some of it and that’s why in addition to the book that I thought was fabulous called “Understanding Your Worst Enemy.”  We have a special CD that were making available in which they will be activated in the Gift of Discernment and that is being able to use the Spiritual Senses as well.  Tell me, all right after this experience what was the first experience you had confronting demons?

Mel:  I can’t remember exactly the first one, but I can remember various ones that begin to stand out in my mind.  I can remember a particular time that there was probably just a couple of years after that that it was during the night session, and by the way I’m convinces that’s the reason why there’s more sin more evil that takes place during the night session.  The Bible talks about the rulers of darkness in this world in the book of Ephesians and if you notice there is more crime, more evil, more sinfulness during the night session and that’s when I see and have demonic experiences of perceiving and dealing with demonic forces.  But any way it was during the night session and I was awakened because of the fact I heard some footsteps in the house and sounded like, you know like a couple of people that were extremely heavy, you know maybe 250 – 300 pounds and their walking through the house and I’m hearing this.  So I hear the footsteps and they walk down the hallway and they walk into my bedroom and I see them standing there and they are these hideous my eyes hadn’t begun to focus towards the night and the darkness real well yet so I see these two figures.  It was very obvious they looked physical to me so I jumped out of my bed to defend my family and my household and started swinging with my fists and they just went right through them and they had these hideous laughs and so then my eyes adjusted to the night and I seen they were demonic forces, demonic demons and so I heard the Lord speak to me and He spoke, it’s amazing when God speaks to you that He can just give you volumes of information in micro seconds if there’s such a thing as micro second.  And but the Lord spoke to me and told me, He said these two demons are here because there’s a person who you’ve praying for that is bound by adultery and bound by alcohol and one of these demons I believe it was the demon on the right because this was way back many years ago probably around in the seventies maybe mid-late seventies and anyway I believe that it was the one on the right was the spirit of adultery and the one on the left was the spirit of alcohol and I’ve been dealing with this person for a few years.

Sid:  Now, did you know that those were to problems in that person’s life?

Mel:  I kind of perceived that, but wasn’t positive.  Alcohol was…

Sid:  Woops were out of time.