Sid: Well this is a man that probably a lot of you do not need an introduction to you’ve heard of him. He’s number 3 or on National Gospel Charts, his name is Eddie James. When I did a special with TBN they could not get enough of Eddie’s music, but there’s a story behind the story. And the last time I interviewed him and I’ll kind of review because some of you did not hear that. At age 8 he became a believer and he heard the audible voice of God, what did God say to you Eddie?

Eddie:   He said that “God was going to use me He had a plan for me to do music and to minister” and He said “I’ve called you to preach and I’ve called you to worship and I’ve called you to write music.” At that moment when I said “Yes to the Lord” at 8 years old He marked me with a call of God.

Sid: Then you went to your mother and she pulled something from her Bible which she had never shown you before what was that?

Eddie: She pulled a card out because when I was… when she was pregnant with me there was a preacher from Africa who told her that I was a son and that I would preach the gospel, I would travel across the world, I would lead worship, I would write music.” And she wrote all of that down on a card and she held it in that place in her Bible until the time that I spoke to her at 8 years old and told her what God told me. I actually told my dad first, my dad and I were on our way home and I told my father what the Lord told me and my dad said, “Make sure you tell your mother.” And so I went to go tell my mother and that’s when she pulled that card out, she was just blown away.

Sid: Now you had quite a destiny even when you were a student in school in high school and God had to prepare you for it. So I’ve heard of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit but you really got baptized in the Holy Spirit! What was that like?

Eddie: (Laughing) Well before I went into high school that year that we were going to go into high school my church at the time was talking about being filled with the Holy Spirit and so I was praying and wanting it so bad. And the Holy Spirit that particular summer just before I went into high filled me with the Holy Spirit, baptized me in His fire and such a way I spoke in tongues all day, spoke in tongues all night. The next morning I was speaking tongues, I mean it….

Sid: How long did that fire last?

Eddie: Well it never quenched (Laughing) it’s going on to this day.

Sid: I know but I guess what I’m asking and I understand that and I believe that. However I’ve talked to people that have been baptized in fire and sometimes, they’re just so wasted they can’t even function normal, is that the way you were?

Eddie: Well Sid honestly for about 3 days I could not even think English, I could not…

Sid: (Laughing)

Eddie: I could not function normal in society. I was so drunk, I was so taken by the Holy Spirit. And if people understand my particular church background that’s just the stuff you don’t conjure up and you just don’t do, you know I received the Lord when I was 8 and I so did not want to be what they would call fake or putting on or just kind of doing this because I saw others do it. And it took me awhile for me to really be healed or give into the presence because I didn’t want Him I just more afraid of myself not really doing this the right way. But when the Lord broke… helped me to break through that and I just yielded for about 3 days Sid I couldn’t even think straight.

Sid: Hmm.

Eddie: It was incredible.

Sid: But that was an empowerment for what was coming next and as a youngster I consider someone in high school a youngster. I mean I’m amazed that you had the ability to start a small choir, and the small voices went from 30 to 300. But God gave you another encounter in high school which is outrageous; you were in class and all of a sudden your spirit left your body. What was that like?

Eddie: I can remember it was like yesterday. I was at my music class we were singing a song called Adonai in my music class and while I’m there at the point of singing that song my spirit leaves my body. The building, the roof over my head begins to split in half. I go into midair. The hand of God comes from heaven into midair and from His hand comes these crystals that come into my spirit, I see it coming into my face and my chest.

Sid: I’m starting to shake over your just telling that story.

Eddie: It was the most defining spiritual experience of my life. I mean I could remember like I said like it was yesterday. I am hanging in midair and these crystals come into me and I was there for the entire class period because once the bell rang it was time to go to the next class. I remember my spirit going back into my body, the roof closing up and they said I operated in class like it was normal. I don’t remember anything about that class or much of that day, all I can remember is being so connected to the Spirit of God. My spirit in midair hit His hand and just the impartation that I was receiving I didn’t understand what God was doing in that moment; I didn’t know why it happened, it wasn’t something that I necessarily prayed to happen. It’s just God supernaturally took me into a place in Him that has marked me for a life time.

Sid: Well we’re going to talk on tomorrow broadcast on how He equipped you to go into a traditional Jewish (Laughing) synagogue and oi vey I can’t believe what happen there but we’ll save that for tomorrow. But I want you to know that your new CD “Yearn” and also the other two of “Shift” the one “Yearn” how in the world did you come up with idea of “God, me, and my piano?”

Eddie:   I’ll tell you that it was birth is many of you all know what I do for reaching young people and in the early days of doing that and rescuing kids many of them went home for Christmas celebration. So I was at my house in my home studio just begin to worship the Lord. I pushed the record button and I just got lost in worshiping God as I normally do. And when I looked at it I felt the unction of the Holy Spirit that people needed to hear this and to be able to have intimate time with God. So the second one I did was called “Yearn” and I would never forget it. Sid when I did this song, when I did the yearn project and there was the song called “As the Deer” I was so gripped by God that the gentleman that was with me he was helping me to engineer this song in the studio. I fell from my keyboard onto the floor, and for about 45 minutes I wept and I just rolled on the floor. Holy Spirit so gripped me and so poured into me and I was just gone. My spirit was just with Him and I was so gripped by me and I really believe that somehow comes through on the “Yearn” CD. I don’t…

Sid: Okay Eddie…. “As the Deer Pants”

SID: So Shane Warren is caught up into the heavenlies seven hours and he’s taught how to change the atmosphere through worship. He’s taught why we should worship. He’s taught what happens when we worship. He’s implemented what he’s taught in his own congregation. That’s why he sees so many miracles. As a matter of fact, you’ve got to tell us about that blind person. You had all the students. You told the students, “Come up. I want you to watch this person’s blind eye.” Tell me that story.

SHANE: We have a school of ministry and I feel like God has called me to help make the next generation aware of the supernatural. And we were in a church in the southern part of the state, in Mississippi, preaching there. And this lady come up needing healing. I felt like God told me, interrupted me and said, “I want you to pray for the sick.” She came up. She had a milky eye. Her eye was almost looked like it didn’t have a pupil at all. It was very milky. She could not see out of that eye. And for the first time in my life, you know I’ve prayed for the sick and ministered to the sick ever since I’ve been a Christian, especially a preacher. But the first time, Sid, I knew that I knew, that I knew, that this woman was getting ready to get her sight in that eye, that God was going to heal her. So I called all of my students, we had numerous students, and said, “Come right now.” I said, “I want to show you the power of God. We’re not just preaching the Gospel, we’re demonstrating the Gospel.”

SID: Now wait a second. You are sticking your neck out. I mean, can you picture this. He has all these students, come close, I want you to watch, not after the fact, before the fact. That is chutzpah. That’s a Hebrew word for nerve.

SHANE: Well I just knew I had this confidence, this confident knowing in God that came behind me. And the Lord just whispered these words in my ear, He said, “Just say, ‘let the eye look straight on.'” And so I just spoke to the eye and I said, “Eyes, look straight on.” And as soon as I said it, all of a sudden, this milky substance began to dissolve and you could see a pupil forming quickly and clearly in that eye. Several of the students started running backwards. The lady began to scream and yell, “I can see! I can see! I can see!” You know, you believe, you say you believe in the supernatural, but then when it happens it catches you off guard. It’s so wonderful isn’t it? Christianity is so exciting. So they run backwards and someone said, “Oh my! Oh my!” Everybody in the place starts rejoicing and people get saved, come to the altar as a result of this woman getting her miracle. It was glorious.

SID: Those students will never, ever be the same.

SHANE: Normal church and normal Christianity, normal living is not an option for them because now they know the supernatural is real.

SID: Okay. Tell me some of the secrets you learned during that seven-hour visitation about worship.

SHANE: One of the things the Lord showed me is that so many people are unaware of the spirit realm. In fact, I feel like it’s my life call to make people aware of the spirit realm. In 1st Corinthians, chapter 11, Paul makes a statement that we need to be careful how we conduct ourself in church because of the angels. There’s angels that come together. And so when I was caught up in this place, I started seeing the working of angels as people were worshiping him. And I was praising God, God was showing me the release of these angels toward my situation, as well as I was standing in other situations. I had been praying for people in my church as a pastor bearing burdens for them and I was literally seeing angels running toward with the miracles that they were believing God for while they were in times of private worship. That was just one incident of one example of what I was seeing in the spirit realm. It started opening my mind up to the supernatural. And then God began to show me keys. He showed me what Jesus does while we’re worshiping. He showed me what Jesus does in a worship service while we’re worshiping. He showed me that the atmosphere of Heaven, what happens when we start worshiping, the response the angels have, the response God the Father has, the response Jesus the Son has. And as I was seeing this unfold, it dawned on me that we come to church and we do all of these religious calisthenics I call them, but we’re not really aware of what’s going on in the spirit realm. And if we really knew the power of praise and worship that it has so much supernatural ability and releases the supernatural. And people are ignorant. The Bible says, “My people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge.” There is not a lack of abundance. There is only an abundance of ignorance. There is more than enough of God to go around. He’s El Shaddai. He’s the God of too much.

SID: Now can I, you have this atmosphere in your congregations. The leaders of Louisiana said it’s the place to be because of the atmosphere of God you have in your congregation on Sunday morning. Can we have that same atmosphere in our homes?

SHANE: Every single person right now in this studio audience, every single person watching right now by television can have this atmosphere everyday of their life, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They can walk in it. They can live in it. This is what the Apostle Paul talked about when he said, “We were positioned in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” The problem is we don’t know who we are in Christ. And Galatians, chapter 4 says, “You can be an heir of everything, but if you have a mindset of a child, the Satan will treat you like a slave.” And so many of the children of God are living like slaves because they’re ignorant of basic biblical principles that tell us who we are in Jesus Christ and how to access the heavenlies.

SID: I’m going to tell you something. Shane accessed the heavenlies. He hears conversations between Jesus and God the Father. In fact, he was telling me about a conversation he heard recently. He then just was an actor on a stage, released it at a meeting of pastors. He knew the pastor’s name. He knew the pastor’s city. He knew the pastor’s address. He knew what was going on in the pastor’s life. It wasn’t he was so smart. He eavesdropped on that conversation. I want to find out about this when we come back.

Sid: Well my guest is red hot for the Messiah, he’s a prophet and he’s seen things that are going to happen in the last days. And in fact Pat Schatzline tell me about the prophetic dream that you had in October 2012. About the… you were in an old dinner.

Pat: I fell asleep late one night and God had put it in my heart that He was going raise up the remnant and I didn’t know how He’d do it. I had spent sometime with our dear father in my life Reinhardt Bonnke and he had even said to me “Pat you must get a generation filled with the Spirit. So to fast forward 10 months later and he said “Get ready for prophetic dreams like you’ve never experience.” I fall asleep late one night it’s probably 11:15 or so. I fall asleep I’m lying in bed and the Lord immediately took me away to an old dinner. Like a dinner you would see on Route 66 in New Mexico or Arizona. And I’m sitting at this table and great leaders are sitting around me. And Sid I need to tell you that I believe you were sitting there with me because there was a man there that I did not know. And I believe you were sitting there with me, anyway we’re sitting there and there’s a giant old radio in front of me like my grandparents had. You turn the dials and it would light up when you would land on a station. So I’m in the middle of the booth, everyone is sitting around. And I turn the dial and it lands on this open station. And the broadcaster says “The stadium is full in New York City and the remnant is worshipping God. We begin to laugh, we begin to cry. I keep turning it, the stadium is full in Atlanta, turn it again and the stadium is full in Dallas, turn it again and the stadium is full in Salt Lake, Seattle, San Francisco, Atlanta, all the way down through. I’m weeping and laughing so hard that I sit up in the bed and wake up. My wife wakes up besides me and she’s my, what I call the Holy Spirit in the flesh she’s so pure. Karen jumps up and she says “The presence of God is in our room.” And I said… and I’m weeping and laughing at the same time. I look over at the clock I thought I’d been sleep all night and it was exactly midnight. I jump out of bed I run upstairs and I email Reinhardt Bonnke and said “God has shown me He’s coming to America, he’s not done with America he showed me that it’s going to happen.” And Reinhardt I call Pastor Bonnke emails me back and says “I know He has shown me the same thing, get ready and prepare the way.” And that was such a powerful encounter that God said for me “Get Ready.” What we’d been calling dead he’s been calling sleeping. He’s about to awaken this generation young and old. He’s about to raise up those that feel like they cannot be used, the remnant. Those that God says “I’ve been calling forth those that will be a rag in my hand.” The word remnant means rag, and it also means what ties the generation together. If you study the definition of remnant in the Hebrew it means those that are left over after others have followed apostasy or false doctrine. It’s those…

Sid: Speaking of apostasy and false doctrine I am amazed at what is flooding the airways right now in reference to a gospel without repentance. A gospel without sin just the good news, I mean it’s unbelievable that people are accepting a gospel without the cross!

Pat: And you know I’ve learned that the cross is offensive and if you mention the blood it offends people. But the gospel is offensive and we are living in a time… I wrote about this in the chapter in book called “Weeping Lions and Roaring Lambs.” Where the Lord spoke to me laying on my face one day 2 weeks in a row He kept saying “I’m looking for weeping lions and roaring lambs.” And I’m in Singapore jogging one morning and I said “What does that mean?” He said “I’m looking for those that have been standing on pride rock to weep again because He’s the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Jesus was the weeping Lion for the roaring lambs. But we’re living in a time when people are preaching the gospel without repentance because repentance is offensive. So literally they’re preaching grace without responsibility and grace without responsibility is nothing more than a form of religion. Grace is not the invitation to leave the cross but an invitation to cling to the cross. Titus gave a clear definition of grace, but we’re living in a time of what I call greasy grace where people are preaching that… it’s kind of like this “They’re firing the Holy Spirit from churches. They’re not Father, Son and the Holy scripture but they do not want the Spirit of God any more so they fired Him, they kicked out. So I’m actually writing a message right now called “An interview with the Holy Spirit.” And the reason why I’m writing that is because I write in the book that the Holy Spirit has been fired because if we were ever to allow Him into our church then we would be messed up by the presence of God. But people don’t want to be messed up by His presence anymore because we’re living in a time… and I have to be careful you can tell this burns inside of me that people are preaching that there is no such thing as repentance anymore. Well if that’s the case throw out Revelation chapter 2, Revelation chapter 3 where over and over it says “Repent your running out of time.” And repented means to watch the house burn down and walk away, it means to get clean. But now, I’m going to tell you something pretty bold, I honestly believe the church will be packed out the day after the rapture if the remnant doesn’t rise up. Because we’re living in a time where he’s separating the 10 virgins, those that want the presence of God and those that don’t. All 10 were pure, but 5 of them missed the party. And I write about that in the book. God has had enough of those that are declaring a false doctrine, He really comes back to humanism and heathenism and really it comes back to if you study it the oldest religions in the book where it’s about self and manmade and it’s dangerous. But the remnant stands up and says I’m sorry that is wrong. You can’t live that lifestyle and go to heaven. And boy the attacks come right now for those of us who stand for truth.

Sid: Let me ask you this, you say there’s 3 things that we have to zero in on as a remnant purity, authority and joy; explain.

Pat: Purity number 1 is my righteousness is as filthy rages but His blood purifies me. Living a life that says “I am separate from the world; I am going to live a holy life I am going to stand up for what it means.” Not legalism but a life that says “I’m separate from what the world has to offer. I’m cleaning all of this stuff out of my life.” And then when it comes to joy you know honestly I preach in a different place every week all over America. One of the things that has been stolen from the church is joy, joy unspeakable and full of glory. And “In His presence is fullness of joy and at His right hand.” And what we don’t understand is if you’re not spending time in His presence you are not going to find anything but temporary fulfillment compared to His presence brings joy. And then the 3^rd one authority, I’ll never forget we were in a hotel room. We got a little girl in China adopted her when she was 9 months old. And for one solid week she screamed every hour on the hour and the Lord finally spoke to me that son this is a terror attack, there is a demonic force that doesn’t want to let go of her when you take her home from China to America and restore her identity. She’s 9 months old and suddenly in the middle of the night I got up and I turned worship on. Our family had not slept, we were exhausted, we were at each other throats. I turned on worship and when I did a giant demon appeared in the corner of the room and was laughing and pointing at my daughter. And I stood up in that hotel room and I said very quietly so I wouldn’t wake anyone, you have no authority I’m taking her with me, I’m giving her an identity, she’s taking my name I have adopted her.” That demonic power went out the window. Suddenly the next day my wife and daughter and son were on a flight to another providence, something to do with the adoption. My wife looked over me and said “I saw it.” And said “You saw what?” I didn’t know that she had seen it, she said “I saw the demonic figure in the corner, I saw it crawl out the window.” She wrapped her arms around me on the plane and said “Thank you for being a man of authority.” Folks that are listening, you have the authority to walk through your house in Jesus Name and run every demonic force out. You have the authority to pray over your home to anoint your kids that, anoint your spouse’s pillow. You have the authority to say “Not in my house devil, my house will be holy.” So when you get a hold of a true biblical authority, and that comes through knowing the word of God, slowly studying it and having a prayer life. The other night and I’ll wrap with this for a week now I had a dream that my wife and daughter were killed in a car accident. On Friday night I went to do a wedding; my wife and daughter were meeting me at the wedding.   My phone rang at 5 minutes to 6 my wife wasn’t there yet, this was for 2 of our kids through our school of ministry. I said “Where are you?” She said “Pat I just had a wreck on the freeway but the minute it started to happen a car slammed on their breaks it was raining someone came around both sides she couldn’t get over. I heard angels begin to sing in our car, I locked our breaks, destroyed our car. It just happened Friday night, but she said “But Pat, she said “We’re fine, the person we hit is fine, your daughter is fine, she said “Preach the wedding and come get me.” And the reason why I say that, for one week I declared Psalms 91 over my wife and daughter, I knew the enemy, I had a dream that she was killed in a car accident. I knew the enemy was going to try to take my family. He lost because the authority God has placed in us to stop the plan of the enemy.

Sid: How far away are we from the return of the Messiah?

Pat: You know I honestly believe that as I watch Israel being surrounded, I’m watching Syria and Russia join forces with Iran. I honestly believe that we are less than 5 years away from the return of Christ. That’s why the mandate is so intense that we must lead a generation young and old back to the glory of God right now. We are there Sid, I believe with everything inside of me, that in fact prophetic words have been giving to us; get the message out now we’re out of time because God is coming back. He has to come back, because we’re at a place where the enemy is killing young and old in this generation, but the church is going to have to rise up and begin to pray 2^nd Chronicles 7:14. We’re going to have to repent and get back to having encounters with God.

Sid: But the truth of the matter is you have a choice right now and you can be the 5 wise virgins, or you can be the 5 foolish virgins. But you need some anointed help from heaven. And we’re going to pray a special prayer for you the last maybe on Friday’s broadcast.

Pat: Thank you Lord.

SID: I am amazed, Rabbi Jonathan, how big this is. This isn’t some little principle. This affects everything. Explain.

JONATHAN: Yeah. The Shmitah has so many facets. It’s not only, now we just touched on how it’s affected the economy, Wall Street, everything. But it actually affects even physical realities. And the first thing, one of the mysteries, it’s called the Mystery of the Towers. And the Bible word for tower is “migdal”. It comes from the Hebrew word “gadal,” which means greatness. So there’s a link between towers being built and greatness or, you know, a nation’s greatness or it’s pride, it’s glory were great.

SID: You know what that reminds of? The Tower of Babel.

JONATHAN: Exactly.

SID: That’s what they were trying to do. We’re going to make a name of ourselves.

JONATHAN: That’s exactly it.

SID: We’re going to build a tower up to Heaven.

JONATHAN: That’s exactly it. Now could there be, now there’s a mystery here, could it be that the rising of the highest towers in the world actually mark the rising of nations and powers. And we’re going to see, it’s linked to the Shmitah. It’s amazing. For instance, up from the Middle Ages the highest towers were in Europe, the center of power was Europe. But a change took place in about 1870, there’s the greatest tower rises up in a new land. It’s America, 1870. The next year, America becomes the strongest economic power on Earth. The mantel goes from Britain to America. So the rise of the tower actually marks it. From then on, America builds the highest towers on Earth as its power keeps growing and growing, and growing, and growing. But we’re going to see there’s a link with the Shmitah. Because in 1945, at the end of the Second World War, height of American power, there’s a plan to build a new tower that’s going to represent America’s greatness. It’s the World Trade Center. 1945 is the year of the Shmitah. The tower is conceived, the World Trade Center, the year of the Shmitah. It’s begun, they start building it in 1966, year of the Shmitah. It’s built for a seven-year cycle, the exact cycle of the Shmitah, seven years of the Shmitah. Finished in 1973, year of the Shmitah. And then finally, 2001, it’s destroyed in the year of the Shmitah. Now here’s a link. Now what’s the link? The towers. Tower is about rising. The Shmitah is about falling. It actually means “let it fall”. The tower is about the glory of man. The Shmitah is about humbling the pride of man or the pride of a nation. So here we see in the Bible, you know, the Shmitah wipes out accounts, we saw, that are built up. It also wipes out realities that are built up, too. And so here in the year of the Shmitah, actually as the Shmitah gets to its peak, that’s when 9-11 happens. 9-11 happens at the peak of the Shmitah. Last week, when it’s getting ready for the day of nullifying, wiping things out, and actually the collapse of the tower causes the collapse of Wall Street. You have the greatest, the collapse of a tower, I mean, pride of a nation, and you have the collapse of Wall Street the same time on the day of the Shmitah, which means that even the timing of 9-11 was to term, had to be determined exactly by the ancient mystery of the Shmitah. And what, here’s the prophetic thing with this, Sid. This is just one of the things. That if the rise of a tower speaks of the rise of a nation, what does the fall of a tower speak of? It speaks, it’s a warning of the future of America.

SID: So as you point out, the harbinger was 9-11.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

SID: It’s a warning. How many warnings do we get before judgment? What’s the pattern?

JONATHAN: God is merciful. With the harbinger, exactly right. This follows, the harbinger, not only was that a harbinger, but then we are, there’s a tower going up right now at Ground Zero, which, it’s the fourth harbinger. Well that’s linked to the Shmitah as well. There are things happening, since the book “The Harbinger” came out, it’s becoming true and it’s linked to the Shmitah. That there are signs appearing, we can’t get into it, but the signs have to do with that tower about what is rising up at Ground Zero, which is linked to defiance. Because remember, you know, this tower also, the tower that’s rising now, was conceived in the year of the Shmitah at the same time, with that vow about defiance that was made on Capitol Hill. And it’s probably going to be completed most likely in the year of the Shmitah that’s coming. So that’s just a little bit of the Shmitah and the tower. But this also is about the rise and fall of nations. The Shmitah gives the key about when nations rise and fall, has to do with America. Let me give you an example how this mystery is so big it’s affected everything. Shmitah, it actually can be taken, as I said, shaking or falling, or collapsing. 1917, you have the year of the Shmitah. You have a collapse on Wall Street, but you also have a shaking of the nations called the First World War. The Shmitah is about collapsing. In that war, you have the collapse of powers, collapse of four empires. The German empire, the Hungarian, the Russian, the Ottoman all collapse in the year linked to the Shmitah. And you also have, it’s linked to the Shmitah, which is linked to the rise of nations. 1917 is the year that begins America’s rise of world power on the stage. It enters the First World War. Consider that. And so you have the beginning of this rise. But if you take four Shmitahs later, which is 28 years. Interesting, “4” in the Bible is the number of kingdoms. It takes you to 1945, and you have another global cataclysm. You have the shaking of the world, shaking, World War II coming. You have literally, actually, you know, Hitler’s attacks began in 1938. That was the year of the Shmitah. Go seven years to 1945, until it’s over, Shmitah. The Holocaust, Kristallnacht, it’s noted as 1938, as the faithful year, year of the Shmitah, ends 1945, year of the Shmitah. When you reach the peak of the Shmitah, you also get the peak of World War II, summer of 1945. You’re approach the Shmitah’s day of nullifying things, the day of wiping out. Unleashed on the world is the greatest power of wiping out ever, the atomic, nuclear warfare comes on at the end of the war. It’s like this crescendo. The war ends in the last week of the Shmitah, this whole seven-year period. And when, actually in Berlin, the allies have a victory parade. It’s on the day of the end of the Shmitah. And so world history, this launches America as the super power of the world. Even the Cold War, in the year of the Shmitah. Now if you go one more period, you go four Shmitahs later, 28 years, Shmitah can mean also the fall of a nation. It gets you to 1973. Key point. 1973, America decides to legalize the killing of unborn children, same sin, ancient Israel was judged for. And that same year, also is the year America loses its first war. Vietnam collapses on the same day, August 15, that America won the war before in the other Shmitah. And so you have this thing of the fall now. And the same year of that fall, you have the World Trade Center, which marks the same year that America legalized the killing of its children.

SID: Okay. Now with the amazing precision we’ve just seen in the past, what does that tell us about now and the future?

Sid: We want families of born again believers to be role models for the world. We want to provoke Jewish people and all people to jealousy. Our families are not what they’re supposed to be, children even in Christian homes are estranged from their parents. Husband and wives are bickering and fighting and flying in the wrong direction. And I believe that God has put into my hands a course called “What God has Joined Together, God’s Plan for a fulfilled Marriage.” I am raving about this teaching, I believe that if you have a bad marriage, if a husband and wife listen to this course and if it’s so bad that only one spouse will listen I believe that through using God’s word with the revelation knowledge that God gave Gary Whetstone that your marriage is going to turned around. If you know young people getting married or newlyweds, I urge you to get this into their hand. The course “What God has Joined Together” 6 audio cassettes plus a booklet “Life Changing.” I have on the telephone Pastor Gary Whetstone Pastor of Victory Fellowship in New Castle, Delaware. He is also the head of Gary Whetstone Worldwide Ministries and has founded over 207 Bible Schools worldwide. On yesterday’s broadcast we found out that Gary had a freak accident and went as we say in Hebrew mashuga, crazy, locked up in a mental institution, nothing to be done with him. They wanted to do an electronic lobotomy that would leave him as a vegetable. Two days before he get’s led to the Lord, he urges the head psychiatrist to let him out and not have this lobotomy. They don’t listen to him they thought “Oh, talking about God that proves he’s crazy.” And supernaturally he escapes from the institution, he runs on the highway and he doesn’t even remember this except he met the woman. This woman goes right through him on her car and she’s shocked. She recognizes that he’s a mental patient that has run away because she’s connected with that institution and she’s ready to call the police and a voice said to her Gary.

Gary: “Do not report him that this young man belonged to God and God had a call on my life.” Incredible isn’t it? Just think about that Sid that a person who was ready to take an action God intervened blinded the eyes of all of those guards, spoke to that woman, and now that woman was in our church and she did not even know that I was that young man until she had been in the body to Christ in our church for about 7 years. Incredible of the power of God delivering a person. You know Sid we had stopped with a fact that that car like went through me and then I literally did escape and did go to Florida. And I remember praying a second time in Florida the only time that I had talked to God that I remember and I said “God if You’re really real I want to be able to go back to Delaware and have a clean bill of mental health.” For some unknown reason this incredible peace came over my life which I now know is the peace of God. And I came back to Delaware they put me through months of evaluation again and tests and could find absolutely nothing wrong. Salvation Sid was a complete absolute turn around and transformation of my life. As soon as I got out of the mental hospital which was now in 1972, a young man that we know that anybody who was in a tremendous traumatic state of that nature is looking for security. What I did is I went back to some of my former girlfriends that I had had prior to becoming locked away in the mental hospital.

Sid: Now you really, although you were born again, you really did not know the word of God, you had not been discipled.

Gary: No knowledge whatsoever.

Sid: Okay, go ahead.

Gary: No knowledge, I mean to tell you. Well, actually I went to a church right after getting out of the mental hospital and the pastor invited me to leave. Because he said “We don’t have your kind here.” And it was really turned me off to even want to know God anymore. I started dating again a former girlfriend her name was Faye O’Neal, and she had known me all of my life growing up and knew what had happened to me in the mental hospital and all of the things and drugs and everything. And literally I married her on the 12^th of May in 1972. You know sometimes when we understand the situation of a person prior to marriage we can look back and say “Oh yes, if they’d only had fixed that before they got married they would have been able to successfully been married.” Well, that’s what happened with me, I came into the marriage with all of the baggage of having such an incredibly tormented life. Even though I had salvation Sid I did not have knowledge. I didn’t know what the Bible said about marriage, I didn’t know what God wanted to do with marriage. My wife was not born again, we never went to church and after a period of just a few years I mean I went back into college and started growing academically in business and finance and industry that I was in industrial engineering. All of a sudden one day, now this happens to so many people I tried drugs one time just marijuana nothing serious. In 1975 all of a sudden all of this incredible torment came back upon my mind. One open door to the enemy caused a complete mental relapse. Sometimes we have people that are in our church and see that happen with drugs or alcohol and we don’t really give enough credit to the power of that mental torment and abuse. My wife said “Listen if you ever have a situation where you go back again to that mental process I’m out of here.” Well, she was and she sued me for everything and got it all. But what’s interesting is during that time my mother ended up in the latter part of ’75 had given herself to the Lord, had received the power of the Holy Spirit. She said to me “Gary, you know you’ve got a problem here.” Well I said it’s pretty evident got two small children that child support has given you $15 left a week to live on.” She said “No, no, no that’s not the problem; the problem is you’ve got demonic spirits that have really been tormenting your mind and you need to get set free.” I didn’t understand what that meant believe me Sid at all but I did know this it sounds far better than the mental hospital. During that time, and many of those that are listening today you’ve had similar experiences. Tremendous pangs of depression and mental anguish had gripped me to the place where I had attempted suicide in 1975 three times.

Sid: I read about that time you actually drove your car on the railroad tracks, heard the train and you were going to be… I mean that wasn’t Russian roulette that was suicide.

Gary: Absolutely, you know I had no plan of ever living. I had failed in suicide attempts before and I would watch the Amtrak Train coming up the east corridor here in Newark, Delaware which is right outside the church that I pastor in New Castle, Delaware. And I sat on the tracks of that train that sped by at about 80 miles and hours in my little Volkswagen waiting to be killed. That train was on a different track, I mean it’s incredible what God does. It turned out that the train had had some track problems several miles between Baltimore – Delaware and the rerouted the train to another track. It sped by me and missed me. Well, that was it. I ended up being majorly offended by these attempts of suicide, but one thing I did do which really brought a change. I got Spirit-filled in a small home meeting during that time. And a person ministered to me a Pastor in the region here and he got me set free mentally. Sid, that’s when I gave myself to the word of God. And I said “If God can deliver a mental patient like me, if God can take the pain of attempted suicide and the horrific areas of depression and mental torment that was in my life and break it, God could restore a marriage.” As I shared yesterday, I spent 7 years studying the word of God because of the failure that I was as a man, as a father, as a husband. And I realized that the word of God was only truth that had power to bring change and as well with the Holy Spirit. After I gave myself to that intense time of study and prayer for my wife Faye it was very incredible. As we were going through out divorce proceedings I would pray for her. And then I want you to listen to this if you’re listening because God gives you the same ability. I could see in the Spirit what was happening with my wife, I mean at first she took off with one of my best friends the very day that we separated. You think that anybody with this type of experience with marriage would become very embittered and have a lot of hatred and judgment. But you know God taught me something and that was that love literally has no account of sin or hurt. That love covers a multitude of sin. And I can tell you I remember when we published that article in Charisma Magazine which you’re referring to many times. I had pastors call me right after that and they say “Gary you should never own up to anything that is so controversial in your past.” And you know I said to pastors I said “Look what are we hypocrites to think that pastors don’t have challenges.” Any of you that are listening you know pastors that have fallen to immorality, areas of compromise and sometimes even ministers have the worst marriages in the church. And you know I settled in my heart that year that God was going to restore our home. I not only had conviction, but I gave myself 100% to the understanding of the word of God because the word of God is like it says “That which God has joined together let not man put asunder.”

Sid: But very briefly, at your divorce did… you did get divorced.

Gary: Oh yeah.

Sid: What did you tell the judge and put in demand to be put in the record?

Gary: You know this is kind of interesting my wife is you know standing there and I’m standing there and he asked me, “Do you have anything to say Mr. Whetstone before this divorce decree is final?” And I said “Yes.” The Stenographer is there typing all of the words being said. And I took the Bible off of the area that the judge kind of has you raise your hand to or whatever. He said “What are you going to do with that?” I said “I’m going to read a sentence. He said “We only use that as a point of reference for you to speak truth.”   I said “Well, it’s to me more than a point of reference, this is truth.” And I open up the Bible to 1^st Corinthians chapter 7 verse 11. And I said “And I want it to be on the record that this statement governs greater authority than the courts of Delaware, greater than my wife’s desire to be divorced, it says ‘But if she departs let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.’” And I said “I want it to be on the court record that I’m only going to permit Faye Whetstone to remarry me.” That judge looked at me like I came from Mars and he said “What you’re going through a divorce today.” I said “I realize that and I know that the law is bringing a closure to this area of marriage but I want you do know I will remarry this woman and I will not permit her to stay unmarried, she will remarry me.”

Sid: Our time is up.

Gary: I know.

SID: You think Hank Kunneman had problems. He had an adoptive father. He was a disciplinarian. Never said I love you, never affirmed him. His teachers said, you should never publically speak, you should never write. I mean, he would go into his bedroom and weep. But at 18, he became a believer in the Messiah, and in his bedroom, he was filled with the Spirit of God and began to speak in supernatural languages. What happened?

HANK: I had a vision of Heaven that night that I was filled with the Spirit of God. My mom, in fact, was yelling at the top of the steps trying to get my attention. Had no idea what was going on. And as I was praying in tongues, all of a sudden, I saw myself in a place where there was like a golden river and I could see a light all around me. It was so bright. And I could see a figure on a throne. I fell immediately down. I couldn’t stop weeping in the presence of what I believe now is I was getting a glimpse of Abba, Abba Father sitting on His throne. But the Glory was so great I couldn’t see beyond it. And that was a very, very dramatic experience for me.

SID: Now how did your parents take to the fact that you are now a believer in Jesus?

HANK: Well my dad and I had a working relationship. I worked for him and that was basically how I would sense any kind of love from my dad. We had a great working relationship. But he didn’t like the fact that I had just gotten saved because I didn’t use a lot of wisdom. Sometimes you know, when you’re first saved the tendency is you want to get everybody saved. You don’t use a lot of wisdom in the sense that you beat them over the head. I was pretty aggressive, over-zealous.

SID: Okay. They’re not happy with that. I get it. You had severe acne.

HANK: Yes.

SID: How bad was it?

HANK: Well that’s the part that made my dad even more angry. I had severe acne. Obviously, I worked at a service station, gas station, oil. And the Lord healed me at a service that I was attending. The pastor starts speaking a supernatural word of knowledge, calls out that somebody is being healed with severe acne. And I’m thinking, I didn’t what miracles were about. I had just gotten saved. But somebody next to me, an older woman who became a spiritual mother to me, said, “God’s healing you of acne.” All of a sudden, within a matter of days, it looked somebody took their handprints and went to my cheeks and left their fingerprint imprints, and little circles were appearing, different sizes on my face. My dad could not deny it. I began to tell him that I not only got saved, but I was being healed.

SID: But wait a second now. He saw severe acne. He saw it all gone.

HANK: Yeah.

SID: Did you see those fingerprints?

HANK: Yes. But he said this: “It would be a cold day in hell before I believe in miracles.”

SID: But he just saw one. So how could he say that?

HANK: Well I think part of it was, was my over-zealousness and my desire for him to get saved. Something happened. My dad was so angry with me declaring that I was being healed, even though he did see my face was clearing up, he said something to me. We got in a heated exchange. He said, “Hank, deny this Jesus or get out.” We were face to face. He was that close to me. I couldn’t believe it. Why am I in this confrontation with my dad? I don’t want this to be happening, but it was happening. And I said, “I won’t deny Jesus.” Now what he was saying is he thought I was an occult because he hadn’t heard of Divine healing like this. So he said, “Deny this Jesus.” Really, deny this cult in his mind or get out. And I said, “I will not deny this Jesus.” And the next thing I know, Sid, I’m tumbling down the stairs.

SID: He pushed down the stairs?

HANK: I don’t know exactly. I’m not going to say that my dad did that. But all I know is however it happened, we had a physical confrontation and I landed on the bottom of the stairs. I looked up and my dad was raging with anger. He said, “Get out!” I had just graduated out of high school. I had just accepted Jesus, been filled with the Spirit of God. I had nowhere to go. I didn’t know what to do. And so I began to pack my clothes and I remember the surreal feeling of backing out of that driveway that day not knowing where to go, questioning in my mind, is this Christianity really worth it? It just cost me my home. It cost me my dad. And I thought, well maybe I could just go back and patch this up. But I knew if I went back, I’d have to deny the expressive radical Christianity that I was living.

SID: And then his father develops terminal cancer. What happened?

HANK: So fast-forwarding into the future some 20 years later, my dad develops stage 4 cancer. I begin to talk to him about the Lord and about healing. I asked him, I said, “I know somebody who has a healing ministry, Dad. Have you ever heard of Oral Roberts?” He said, “Yeah.” But again, his thing was, he would say it often in life, it would be a cold day in hell before I believe in miracles. So he didn’t believe in it. But he said, “You know what? I know who Oral Roberts is.” I said, “Well I know his son, Richard Roberts who has a healing ministry. He’s having tremendous success praying for people with cancer. Can I have him call you?” I was surprised. He agreed. Richard prays for him. The doctors are amazed because the spots on my dad’s lungs are disappearing and they don’t have an explanation for it. My dad is seeing healing—

SID: Now did your father believe that was a miracle?

HANK: He said, yes. He told me, “Hank, I cannot deny.” In fact he said, because his words were, it would be a cold day in hell. He said, “Hell has a little bit more ice on it than it used to.”

SID: Hold that thought. We’re going to be right back because you are going to capture a revelation of how much God accepts you, loves you and is for you. Don’t go away.

Sid: My guest Bill Johnson Senior Leader of Bethel Church in Redding, California. And Bill I don’t know about you I’m in absolute awe when I speak and people get healed. It’s never going to get common for me.

Bill: Yeah.

Sid: I mean God was there, God showed up I mean how can that ever get common? Tell me about the time that you were just shaking hands with people and someone had a migraine for 10 years.

Bill: Yeah well that kind of thing has happened a number of times but I was standing at the back door of the church and just greeting people. I’m kind of a feely touchy very affectionate physically so when someone walks by I’ll grab their shoulder, pat them on the back or something as well as shake their hand. I just was doing that to people talking to them briefly as they walked by. And this lady comes back to me 2 weeks later she says when you put your hand on my shoulder greeting me 2 weeks ago 10 years of migraines ended as soon as you touched me. So that’s what we carry that we need to become conscious of a…

Sid: And yet I’ve been at a meeting and you don’t touch anyone you just speak and people all over the auditorium get healed.

Bill: Yeah, yeah yeah. we’ve seen them healed by walking past them the shadow healing, we’ve seen them touch clothing and get healed, we’ve seen them just sometimes just calling out a word of knowledge of a condition they’ll be healed. We just had one happen in England where I was calling out a word of knowledge for hearing, hearing loss and the second half of the word hearing was amplified. The person just heard a muffled hear and ring was amplified they were actually their ear was opened in the middle of the word. So we have all kinds of unusual things happen.

Sid: What is your… obviously someone coming to the Lord is a result of miracles there’s no close second. But from a physical healing viewpoint what’s the favorite healing that you’ve witnessed under your ministry?

Bill:   Oh goodness that’s a hard one. What I’ve been seeing lately that fascinates me so much is that we have so much head trauma being healed. I don’t have a favorite I just have we’ve had over 60 people with bipolar healed. Only 4 of them prayed for the rest of them have been healed either from hearing a testimony or from being in the room when the anointing of God is there and it’s just healing people. We had a gal with terminal systemic lupus of the brain. She was dying she had a blow to her head some years earlier and she was just completely totally healed by the Lord in a meeting. The next day her mother looked at her when she got up in the morning and said her facial features were the same before the accident and she had been completely traumatically healed. A man who had worms planted nest in his brain he had ate some bad food and it was killing him. They were able to do radiation of something to kill the worms in the brain but they couldn’t get rid of the nesting. He was in unbelievable pain, he walked into the meeting heavily, heavily drugged could not communicate well. And prayed for and within 3 days he was completely normal. All kinds of amnesia, total amnesia partial amnesia, dyslexia, I love to see people healed of brain disorders where they can’t read, they can’t write they can’t read a map, they can’t function normally because their brain just doesn’t function right. That’s what’s been happening of late.

Sid: So it changes as far as an emphasis with you is that what you’re saying.

Bill: Yeah, I think what it is I don’t want to just see one kind of miracle. For example, in the Charismatic renewal a lot of people were praying for legs to grow out. Well I think that that’s very legitimate but I don’t want to stop there and say I have a leg growing ministry I want to see what else He’ll do.

Sid: Alright but wait a second let’s suppose I’m going to use this as an example because the Charismatic movement where I became a believer that was very popular people like Derrick Prince used to pray for someone shorter than another and we would all watch the leg grow out. I mean it was amazing someone with a build up shoe would not need his built up shoe. But most stopped at that point, how do you go beyond your ceiling so to speak?

Bill: Well, you have to find out what He’s willing to do. See He said pursue earnestly spiritual gifts, there has to be a pursuit on our end of the equation. And so what I’ll do is if I sense God healing for example somebody’s leg well, I’ll find out what else He wants to do maybe it’s missing cartilage in the knee, maybe it’s a broken bone that didn’t heal correctly. Maybe it’s metal, maybe it’s a metal rod in the leg. We had one guy missing 2 inches of bone in his leg because of a motorcycle accident and the Lord did grow it out. We’ve had people with metal rods that can’t bend full length the full length of their spine they can’t bend, they can’t twist, they can’t turn. After prayer they have all movement restored to them and so these things are becoming more and more common. To me it’s I have operate out of what I’ve seen God do and I have to hold that standard and I also need to push into what else He might be willing to do. So I look for things I’ve never seen before. I look for conditions I’ve never prayed for. You know somebody’s hurting…

Sid: So in other words like someone that has never prayed for a deaf person to be quite candid with you the first time that I prayed for a deaf person I didn’t want to do it, I knew that they weren’t going to get healed and I was right and they weren’t healed. Are you telling me that living on the edge is looking for what God’s never done through you before and going for it?

Bill:   Yeah, absolutely. We had a policeman in our church that went with me down to Mexico a few years ago to do some meeting and he had never prayed for anyone before. A blind lady came up to me and asked for prayer and nothing happened. She still wanted to see she moved down the line she ended up having this policeman pray for her and her eyes opened up. The first miracle he ever saw was God opening blind eyes. And the crazy thing is before the week was over her had prayed for 5 blind people that all their eyes opened every one of them. And that’s more than I’ve seen in my whole life and he had it in his first time out so. You know I think the Lord just looks for courageous people, He just looks for people that love to take risks based on His goodness.

Sid: Okay, we are making available your latest course and it really is a course because it’s a textbook, it’s a workbook of 187 pages 2 DVD’s 8 sessions and it’s called “Hosting the Presence.” For those that haven’t heard you earlier in the week explain what Hosting the presence is.

Bill: Well, anytime if we’re to have you know highly favored person into our house for a meal we would cook the special meal, we do all kinds of things just to honor that person in our home. Well we have the most precious treasure in the universe in the Holy Spirit residing in us. I want to host Him, I want to treat Him with the same respect and affection and honor. And when you do that you learn that the Holy Spirit cannot just live inside of you but He also want to rest upon you. And for me hosting the presence means I live with an affection and a consciousness of the presence of God upon me and that awareness is bigger than any problem I face.

Sid: Are you indicating that you live with that consciousness and that awareness 24/7?

Bill: I don’t succeed at that no, but I certainly do better now than I used to you know that is what my life is about. So that’s what I really work to maintain that, not as a work thing just He’s a person, He’s a wonderful, wonderful person who loves us and is filled with such joy and affection. The more I live aware of Him the less I’m intimidated by any problem that I face whether it’s personal or national or international.  

Sid: Now how did you first find out about this?

Bill: My dad began back in the early ‘70s to teach us about worship and the privilege of ministering to Him. And you can’t be a worshiper and not encounter the presence. And learning how to maintain that has been kind of a lifelong ambition for me is to learn how to live aware of that presence that I felt in a worship service.   For me the normal Christian life should be that we become as aware of the present support in the marketplace as we are in the church setting.

Sid: Alright if you are aware, if you’re in a market, if you’re in a restaurant and you are totally aware of God’s presence in you, on you, all around you people you touch what difference does it make to you? What difference does it make to you knowing that God’s with you.

Bill: Well there’s automatic courage, you automatically have courage. You can’t look at a problem or a challenge the same way when you realize that the Almighty God is with you so there’s that sense of courage. There’s also when you’re aware of Him you would come aware of His heart, His compassion, His affection for people starts to override your bias’s you might have toward this kind of person, that kind of person. So there’s the affection thing. The compassion you start to get moved for people you look around the room and you just become aware of needs of people and it’s very important to feel the heart of God for people so I think it’s both those things courage and affection.

Sid: But you had an experience with the Lord that even magnified this understanding, tell me about that.

Bill: I just had this encounter with the Lord in the middle of the night where He spoke to me He actually woke me up by speaking and He said… I just woke up suddenly and He said “He watches over the watch of those who watch the Lord.”

Sid: What does that mean?

Bill: Well, you know what a watchman is he sits in a tower and he watches over an area to give warning of the enemy’s coming or to notify that friends are coming. And as a Dad or a pastor, or a husband I’m I watchman over my family, over my church, over my city. And this statement He made “He Himself God watches over my watch if I turn my watch towards Him.” So instead of me trying to be everything for everybody just turning my attention to the presence of the Lord in my life He ends up taking care of the stuff I would be concerned about. I think it’s another way of putting “Seek first the kingdom and His righteousness and all of these things will be added.” I think it was a directive of priorities if I would prioritize the presence He would take care of the things that concern me.

Sid: Okay, I want everyone listening to us to be so aware of the Holy Spirit His presence you’re never going to be alone, never. You’re never going to have to rely just on your ability, never. Really when He says You’ll do the same things I have done and even greater this is the training for it…

Sid: This why I’m so excited about Joel Rosenberg I have him on the line this week. Joel is a best selling author perhaps you read his first book “The Last Jihad.” It made the New York Times best seller list, Number 1 on Amazon but his second book he really out does it. And the thing that’s so exciting to me is that his background was he was a Senior Advisor to Netanyahu in Israel, he was the Chief speech writer for Steve Forbes when he was running for President. He worked 2 years doing research for Rush Limbaugh and on and on. And he’s taken all of this and he comes from a Jewish background, he’s a strong evangelical Christian and he’s put this all in a pot with a prayer. And the prayer was Jeremiah 33:3 and he called to God and God answered. He wrote the book and as you heard on yesterday’s broadcast he thought it was really messed up because he was prophetic and when 9/11 happened he thought “No one is going to want to read this book.” But to make a long story short God wants people to read this book because it’s such an action pack exciting book based on prophetic insight and current event insight that the secular talk show hosts in America they’re not religious at all but they’re saying that this is one of the most fascinating books that they’ve ever read and they get the gospel. Get it, that’s why God is doing it. On yesterday’s broadcast Joel we were talking about I asked you a point blank question and I said “What is your spin on the Palestinian state if you would pick up there.

Joel: Well, I believe that it seems almost inevitable I think it’s inevitable.

Sid: It feels like you made the statement and I feel the same way “The world is pushing for it and the world will not stop until there is a Palestinian state.

Joel: And I write about that in “The Last Days” just the compelling, the forces trying to destroy Israel as well as immense international pressure as well as the internal pressure among Israelis’ who want to be just like the nations as Jewish people always wanted to make peace with the world.

Sid: You know there is I believe Genesis 12:3 is still true today. And that means that God will bless the Jewish people and curse those that curse them. And I have grave in trepidation for the United States of America the greatest country the world has ever seen. I am proud to be an America citizen I have grave in trepidation for our country because we walk ourselves into a curse but I am also concerned about Israel if Israel goes along with this of course on the other side I don’t know how they can fight it. But if Israel goes along with this it’s not a blessing for Israel either.

Joel: No, it’s like taking…it’ll be like taking a child and cutting it in half. It’s not up to Israeli Prime Minister or Parliament or an America President for that matter to give away something that is not theirs to give. And Judea and Samaria is the land that God gave to the Jewish people. Now I have dear Palestinian Christian friends, I was just in Israel with my wife and my children and my parents. All their first trip to Israel and we had a wonderful lunch with our Palestinian Evangelical Christian friend right next to Beit Jala. I have great sympathy to the Palestinians their suffering both under radical Islam and Yasser Arafat’s reign of terror.

Sid: Their really the scape goats in all of this.

Joel: But that’s not having compassion for people isn’t the same as looking at the scriptures and saying “Well, God’s promises aren’t going to happen, let’s just divide up the land how we see fit.” That is bound to be trouble and in “The Last Days” what I basically envisioned was an American President conquering Iraq and then turning his attention not to Iran and North Korea the next elements of the axes of evil but to forcing the Israeli’s to make a make a peace deal with Yasser Arafat. And I began writing the last days in 2002 before my first book was even out and yet it is already coming true that America President has turned his attention now trying to persuade Israeli’s to make a peace deal when there doesn’t seem to be a partner for peace. Now that’s all political and I’m writing a political thriller that draws people in using current events but as you get drawn into this question should Israel or shouldn’t Israel give up the territories and try to make a peace deal with the Palestinian leadership as I draw you into that story the spiritual temperature begins to go up. Because the characters in it aren’t simply on a political or geopolitical quest, they’re on a spiritual quest because of all of the terrorism, because of all of the dangers to their life. You know you can’t just find homeland security or national security these terrorists are dealing with issues of their own eternal security. Which is amazing that God has taken this novel “The Last Days” it’s been out 4 weeks and it’s already 4 weeks on the New York Times best seller list.

Sid: You know what intrigues me Joel about “The Last Days” is one of the premises is they discover oil in the Middle East and this money maybe just the catalyst necessarily for Palestinian and Israeli Jews to get along.

Joel: Well you know Sid people have said for decades that how did it come that the Jewish people and the Isaeli’s are the only people and country in the middle East that doesn’t have oil. That’s been you know a joke like “Oh promise land, how come we couldn’t have gotten Saudi Arabia.”

Sid: (Laughing)

Joel: You know but there are some indications in the scriptures that Israel will one day discover a vast amount of wealth. Discover produce but they will have so much wealth that they will become an envy of their enemies and their enemies will come attack. And I had really speculated this is Ezekiel 37, 38, 39 but I’d really been thinking and praying about that. Okay what could that be and I was doing quite a bit of research, I’d been to Israel a number of times, studied there and as you mentioned I worked with Israelis’ and spent a lot of time there and I began to uncover that there has been huge amounts of natural gas discovered off of the coast of Israel and Gaza and some small amounts of oil. And perhaps it will eventually be proven to be commercial quantities of oil in Israel itself. And as a fiction writer I could take that and say well, “What if that natural gas and oil proved to be of such value and quantity that it could prove the basis for the oil for peace deal. The Palestinians would give up their radicalism and the Israelis’ would give up a little bit of land and that the 2 sides would make a deal. Now maybe a temporary deal, it might not be a deal that lasts but I was in visioning what if oil and gas and the promise of tremendous wealth for every Muslim, Jew and Christian in the region form the basis of an actual peace process.

Sid:
And let me tell you something else that I find real interesting in your book Joel because see I approach it everything prophetically from the Bible and so I’ve got my speculations on the last days also. But you hit so many homeruns according to my speculation. One of my speculations is not only will they find oil which is going to get the whole world incensed with them but another speculation is the big bear Russia is not dead and is actually going to become a great advisory of the world including the United States in the last days.

Joel: Well, you’re beginning to give the early indicators of my third book in the series will be and that’s where Israel not only discovered oil and make a peace treaty based on it which is the book that’s out now “The Last Days.” But that Russia, Iran, Libya and others will begin to be so outraged by this by all the wealth that the Israelis are producing.

Sid: How did you feel Joel when you were involved with these think tanks, Heritage Steve Forbes Presidential campaign, Rush Limbaugh for a couple of years, and you see all the inklings of what the Bible talks about you can see it in their embryonic stages.

Joel: Well, you know what’s interesting Sid because you just put your finger on why I think the Lord took me to Washington and to politics rather than directly into ministry. Which I would have expected and even desired my wife and I both would have. But you know King David writes that “Your law of Lord makes me wiser than my teachers.” And it’s interesting when we know the word of God we have a sense of what’s coming, we may not have the specifics but there are clues to be watching for. And my fascination for the prophecies in Ezekiel 37, 38,39 the rebirth of the state of Israel, the discovery of tremendous wealth in Israel, peace in Israel and then just a cataclysmic, apocalyptic attack on Israel. And then God’s descent and then it’s the pouring out of the Spirit. Well that’s quite a thriller story and it’s true and it’s coming and the question is when? And by working in these think tanks and by working for an Israeli Prime Minister and working for Steve Forbes one of the really though I think one of the leading economic forecasters and someone who has tremendous insight on the global economy I got to meet people and see research and see inside information. But because of my understanding of prophecy totally fascinated me because I said “I think these things are starting to come true.” And that’s what lead me to write well let me just take that and put it in novel form. I didn’t think a non-fiction book would work because it’s all you know because maybe I’m wrong.

Sid: But wait a second now Joel, what I mean here in this country where you can’t even put up the 10 Commandments in a federal building didn’t you think that this would stop your book when you preached the gospel in it in a sophisticated way? But when you preached the gospel didn’t you think that this would stop it from being a best seller?

Joel: Well I was a little anxious about that, curious about it but look I have 3 little prayer warriors in my family…for 2. But we were praying every night with my children I mentioned before on the show Caleb, Jacob, Jonah.

Sid: Well, look with that combination you can’t miss.

Joel: How could you miss exactly and Jonah you know he’s the feisty one in the family he really rings true with his name. But we prayed every night we said “Lord” kids we need an agent for this book to…

Sid: Oh Joel, we’re out of time we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow broadcast.