Sid: My guest by way of telephone, I’m speaking to him from his home in Key Largo, Florida is RT Kendall. RT is former Senior Pastor of Westminster Chapel in London, England. He holds a PhD from Oxford University. And I’m interviewing him this week on a biggie one of the more important things that God wants you to conquer. And it’s called “Total Forgiveness.” Not forgiveness but “Total Forgiveness” subtitle “When Everything in You Wants to Hold a Grudge, Point a Finger and Remember the Pain God Wants You to Lay it all Aside.” Now on yesterdays broadcast I through a phrase for you to cogitate and meditate on and this phrase actually I was having breakfast with my wife Joy and she teaches women on subjects such as what we’re talking about this week and she said this statement to me which really got me thinking. She said “Unforgiveness keeps us from loving again.” We’re so interested in protecting ourselves that because we don’t want to be hurt you know we’re not stupid, we’re not masochists but we’re so interested in protecting ourselves that when we hold on to this unforgiveness and these grudges it keeps us from loving again. But then you know what it keeps us from receiving love because…you know RT there’s a sowing and reaping principal and we wonder why no one’s loving us well we’re so crippled that we can’t love others.
RT: Well I think in connection with what your wife said, and she’s right, the degree to which we don’t forgive is the degree we’re unable to love. And 1 John 4:18 says “Perfect love casts out fear.” Fear has to do with punishment and so we want to punish the people that’s just why we can’t forgive we want to see them punished and we want to take punishment upon our own hands and we want to do what God said He alone will do “Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.” But when we want to do it we’re taking over God’s job and that she’s right “Unforgiveness means that we cannot love.” But that we start forgiving then we start loving.
Sid: And you know in your book you say “Social scientists are discovering that forgiveness helps emotional and physical healings.” And I’m reminded when I read that I was recently at the Toronto Airport Church ministering and John Arnott told me a story I asked him “How come you’re having so many miracles here?” And he said “Sid the real secret is forgiveness.” I’ll tell you a story that there was a woman as child she fell off a horse the horse kicked her bucked her and she fell off the horse and she had back pains, excruciating pains her whole life and she would go to every healing line she could. She’d go to every top healing evangelist she could find – nothing. She’d to doctors, nothing doctors could do. So she was talking to John about this and John looked at her and said “Did you ever forgive the horse?” And she said “No.” And this is a true story and she forgave the horse, John prayed for her instantly healed.
RT: That’s amazing. I preached this sermon on “Total Forgiveness” in Melbourne, Florida about 2 months ago and the next day a lady came to me and said “I went forward last night when you preached your sermon in the middle of the night early this morning I was healed,” she said “Healed, the problems gone!” And it just shows what the Holy Spirit will do when He’s release to be Himself.
Sid: Let’s just review a little bit of what we’ve said today about “Total Forgiveness.”
RT: Well I’ve said mainly 2 things:
- We know we’ve totally forgiven when we stop telling people what they did to us
- We know we’ve totally forgiven when we will not let the people be afraid of us
You see God doesn’t want us to be afraid of Him He’s not given us a spirit of fear but His Spirit testifies when we cry “Abba Father.” He wants us to have intimacy with Him. And as long as we’re afraid of Him we cannot have that. And when people are afraid of us it’s because they think we want to hurt them. Joseph forgave his brothers and said “Come close to me.” And then then there’s the third thing Sid…
- It’s when we don’t those people to feel guilty
Joseph said “Don’t be angry with yourselves for what you did.” Now that’s amazing normally we want people to be very very very upset with what they’ve done and they say “Well I’ll forgive you when I think you’re sufficiently sorry. And one thing that I have people put to me all the time is “Well, how can you forgive them if they’re not sorry, surely they must repent first.”
Sid: They must practice penance.
RT: Yeah I say to them well if you are going to live under the Old Covenant fine it’s tit for tat, but when you take Jesus as your model it’s a whole new world. How many people do you think were repenting at the cross when Jesus said “Father forgive them they don’t know what they’re doing?” And I choose to make Jesus my model by the way Sid when people are sorry it takes little grace to forgive them but when they’re not sorry it takes a lot of grace to forgive them, and nobody was sorry at the cross that Jesus said “Father forgive them.” And one of the things I’ve observed perhaps you have as well most people that I have had to forgive in fact the people that I had to forgive that I have talked to you about a couple days ago when Joseph Zung said “RT you must totally forgive them” those people never felt that they did anything wrong I’m sure of it you could put them under a lie detector and they would feel “Why is RT worried about this?” Most people I have had to forgive they don’t feel they’ve done anything wrong and that’s what kind of hurts you think “Well they ought to know.” And for this reason I caution people, if you have now forgiven them don’t run to them and say “Guess what I forgive you for what you’ve done” because they are going to look at you and say “You’ve forgiven me for what? “Well you know what you’ve done. ‘Well you surely do.’ Well I’m sorry I don’t.” Well now you have a real fight on your hands, don’t go to them and say “I forgive you.” It’s got to happen in your heart and don’t wait them…don’t wait for them to repent chances are you’ll never have to forgive them if you go by that it’s got to happen in your heart.
Sid: Let me ask you a question “Let’s suppose that someone has wounded you deeply and you’ve wounded them deeply and you understand about forgiveness so the first thing you do is you go to them and you repent for having wounded them and ask them to forgive you, which they do. But then they don’t repent for what they’ve done to you, what do you suggest?”
RT: It’s their problem don’t let it be your problem.
Sid: What if it becomes your problem?
RT: Well then get over it!
Sid: (Laughing)
RT: You are required to forgive them and required to get over the self-pity. The only time ever, ever that you go them and say “I forgive you” it’s when they’re begging for it they’re dying for you to forgive them and they’ll be thrilled to hear. But 9 times out of 10 and that’s conservative I’ll say 99 times out of 100 the people I have to forgive they honestly do not believe they’ve done anything wrong at all. Which goes to show I’ve probably hurt people and I don’t know it, have you ever thought about that. There are probably people that have to forgive me and if they came to me and say that I’ve hurt them I would be astounded, I’d be shocked but I have and to them it’s very very real. And so in my own case when I have felt the people hurt me I don’t wait to see that they’ve done the wrong thing and are sorry I just forgive them and never let them know that it was a problem. Which brings me to the 4th proof that we’ve totally forgiven:
- That you don’t tell what they did
- Won’t let them be afraid of us
- Don’t let them feel guilty
- Sid we let them save face
And you know what Joseph said to those brothers? He said “Don’t be angry with yourselves because it wasn’t you who sent me here it was God.” Amazing isn’t it.
Sid: You know what I found is is some of the worst situations that I have been in that the devil meant for evil God has actually used it for good.
RT: Exactly. Well if I’m allowed to say it I’ve written a book called “God Meant it For Good” and it is on the life of Joseph and I have dedicated that book to Joseph Zung that we’ve been talking about. The book “Total Forgiveness” is taking one chapter out of “God Meant it For Good” and making a whole book out of it because that was the part that most about in the book “God Meant it For Good.”
Sid: Now I’m reading quotes from “Who’s Who” of Christendom to people that are endorsing your book but I’m wondering if there’s one quick story that comes to mind about someone that’s either heard you speak or read this message and the effect it had on them.
RT: Well I’ve had more unsolicited letters than you can imagine of people saying “You’ve put my marriage back together.” I’ve had a pastor say that “My deacons now speak to each other.” I’ve had a situation where a pastor was reconciled to his congregation would never ever quote you know names or given give a hint but this book has been the nearest to performing the miraculous of any book than I have ever written. And that is simply because when we forgive the Holy Spirit is released to be Himself and this why people get healed, it affects your health, blood pressure will go down, in some cases arthritis if caused by holding a grudge. And you mentioned earlier that the non-Christian world has discovered the value of forgiveness and if non-Christians can see the value of forgiveness that leaves us without excuse doesn’t it.
Sid: How much more I mean “We’re supposed to be the light and the salt.”
RT: That’s exactly it.
