Sid: We want everyone to be red hot for the Messiah like my guest is.  His name is Akef Tayem, but Akef was raised in the Islamic faith. A Palestinian, Arab and he saw a genuine miracle. He had never seen miracles within Islam; he knew that Jesus was real.  He accepted the Lord but then his family totally disowned him.  Literally spit in his face and he was confused; he didn’t know what to do. He didn’t go on a fast; he just plain had no desire to eat.  He went over 40 days without eating. And he was so dehydrated his body started to crack. And he thought his only hope; he was out in a field was if it would rain. So he said “God please rain.” And at that he felt himself leave his body and he could see his body; he didn’t even know that it was his body. And he couldn’t believe how emaciated this person was. And then he started going higher and higher and he found himself in the 3^rd heaven.  And he had an encounter with Jesus. And he came back to his body and God answered his payer, it started raining. Did you realize that God had answered your prayer at that moment Akef?

Akef:  I was so bewildered I was so excited; I know that I danced, I literally danced my way back to the road.  I mean I don’t know where this strength; I know…

Sid: I was just going to ask you “Remember the guy you saw when you were above your body you couldn’t believe you looked so awful.”

Akef:  Yes, yes and so depleted and then but it was more than water I received Sid.  Strength, I had this strength to walk back to the road which was about maybe 2 and 3 miles away. And there was a gentleman he was a barber, his name was Cornelius, matter a fact, and he saw me. He was very concerned he got out of his car and told me “What happened?  I told him and so he took me to his pastor, a Southern Baptist in Trussville, Alabama.  And I related to him what happened, and they wanted me to… they insisted that they call 911 and they take me to the hospital. And I begged them…

Sid: To the mental department. (Laughing)

Akef:  (Laughing) Yeah.  And I begged them, I said “Please, just give me 2 days and if I don’t… if you think by then I need to go to the hospital take me.”  And I told him “If you could see how I was just 2 hours ago and how I am now, you will see how I’ll be alright, I promise you I’ll be alright.”  So I told them… they tried to give me some food and of course I couldn’t eat, I got a little soup down.  And then they asked me to stay in their guest house. These are the pastor and his wife of the First Baptist Church in Trussville, Alabama. And I stayed with them a few days and the second day, the third day they saw that I was doing great and they asked me to give my testimony at their church at their congregation.  And of course, I didn’t know that you don’t do that in a Baptist Church, I mean you don’t pray for people to be healed; I don’t know and I didn’t know that. That part of too much about the denomination. And so I just told them what my experience and there was this gentleman on a wheelchair. And he just I guess he initiated, he walked towards me and I felt it’s amazing…

Sid: He rolled his wheelchair towards you?

Akef:  Yeah, he wanted to come close to me for some reason.

Sid: Okay.

Akef:  And what I felt and I told the pastor and they did too, is my right hand stayed warm, warmer than the other one.  And I mean they would touch it and it was warmer than the other one. And the pastor, as a matter of fact, he told the people before he introduced me he said “At the end you can come and touch his hand and you will see that his right hand is much warmer and redder; warmer and redder than the other hand.”

Sid: Could you see that it was redder?

Akef:   Oh yes! Oh, I felt it I felt like it was on fire.

Sid: Really?

Akef:  I felt like it was on fire.

Sid: Was it a bad or good feeling?

Akef:    Good, good.  It’s good I felt it’s the hand that touched Jesus.

Sid: Oh, oh oh.  I can’t wait to do my television show with you because I want you to lay hands on me. But go ahead.

Akef:    Praise God, and I think that’s what that gentleman wanted.

Sid: That’s why he rolled forward in his wheelchair.

Akef:  I believe so but I didn’t know because I didn’t know that God could use me in that sense. I mean I’d seen the minister pray for people. The last thing I thought is that I would pray for someone you know.  So he came close and he was looking at my hand and I let him see my hand, and it’s amazing. And he touched me and when he did I said “Father, in the name of Jesus.” I mean, just like that and the gentleman just got up; got up out of the wheelchair.

Sid: Now that was like what you thought was fake when you first became a believer when someone got out of a wheelchair, now it’s happening for you.

Akef:  It’s happening, and even just as puzzling even though I believe it it’s just as puzzling to see it. And he was a deacon, he was from what the pastor told me later he’s been a member of the church for about like 20 – 25 years. Everyone in the community knew that he’s crippled and he gets out of the wheelchair and it’s amazing. And it looks like his wife’s trying to sit him back down or something. And the gentleman just walks around the church, he walks inside of the church and then he just walks out of the door. Just walks I mean he just… and I mean it’s just amazing; it’s amazing. And of course…

Sid: Was that a small town that you were in?

Akef:  Yes, Trussville.

Sid: So I’d imagine that the word spread about the miracle.

Akef:  Yes it has. And the Assembly of God, Methodist Church, Church of God. I was getting invitations.

Sid: Now did you see other people getting healed when you prayed for them?

Akef:   Well, here’s something interesting and the gentleman’s name. I believe if there is a saint, this gentleman is a saint his name if Norris.  He owned a dairy farm, he was a member of the Assembly of God and they told me to preach for 3 nights.  I went there the first night and I was just giving my testimony; that’s all I knew to do of course.  I was giving my testimony and at the end of the service he came up to me he and his wife tears, I mean very sad. And he told me he said “I have a son, he said just about your age perhaps” and I was 20, maybe 22 at the time he’s a little bit younger than you. And he said “He left about a year ago and he went to California we haven’t heard from him.  And we don’t know what’s happening to him, we’ve been praying for him.” It’s amazing Sid, out of nowhere and of course I thought about this later, and I said “Oh my God how did I do this?”  Out of nowhere, I tell him “Sir, your son will be in this meeting before this is over.”

Sid: My goodness, you’re really putting yourself on the spot there.

Akef:  I couldn’t believe it; I couldn’t believe that I said that idea.

Sid: Where did that come from?

Akef:  I don’t know but God reveals.

Sid: (Laughing)

Akef:  You know something, it fascinated me; I told.  And you know what’s amazing though?

Sid: What’s that?

Akef:   What’s amazing is it didn’t even cross my mind Sid even that it wouldn’t happen, it didn’t cross my mind.

Sid: It just came out, you had what I call a mind by pass, it came right out of your spirit and avoided your mind. Is that right?

Akef:  Yeah, something like that.

Sid: (Laughing)

Akef:  I knew that it was going to happen, I knew; I knew that it was going to happen and all I had was 3 days for it to happen in.

Sid: Okay, I can hardly wait; did it happen?

Akef:  Sid, the next day he gets a phone call from his son in California. He puts him on a plane and the third day his son is in the service.

Sid: What did you think? I mean I can imagine what he thought, but what did you think when this happened?

Akef:  I could not, I could not stop praising God, and looking back and wondering; wondering what if I didn’t have the opportunity to know this Christ.  How sad it would have been not knowing this Jesus, this Messiah, who died for me. More than the miracles Sid, more than the miracles was that my heart, my hatred was no longer there.

Sid: Ah, what about your hatred for the Jew?

Akef:  It was gone Sid, it was…

Sid: For the Jew? I mean you were taught your whole life they were your enemies!

Akef:  Sid, I would have loved to have seen a Jew and I would have run and kissed his neck if I could.  It left, there was no hatred. To me that was perhaps the greatest thing because I had to carry this, I had to carry this pain.  And I didn’t know that it was pain until after it was gone.

Sid: You must have a great great desire for all people to know this Jesus but especially people from the Islamic faith.

Akef:  True.

Sid: I would imagine it must almost break your heart when you see so many people that don’t see Jesus for who He is.

Akef:  And that is perhaps; that is perhaps the saddest thing for a Muslim and the greatest thing for a Christian. Because I see after my experience when I started going to churches now I would see the Christians there praising God and in my mind it would always occur to me I would say “Do you really appreciate, do you really know the opportunity that you have? Do you really know what a great, what a great privilege?

Sid: You know coming from a traditional Jewish background I understand what you’re saying we just don’t take our belief for Jesus for granted. And that’s what you’re saying the way that so many people here in America they call themselves Christians.

Akef:  Yes.

Sid: Listen we’re out of time I have so much more to talk to you about. God has given you… I absolutely believe Akef that God has given you the same supernatural wisdom where you knew this young man was going to come from California in 3 days. You have that supernatural wisdom to present the gospel to Muslims. And we’ll talk a little bit about it tomorrow.

 

Sid: Well my guest is Jonathan Bernis; you’re familiar with him from “Jewish Voice With Jonathan Bernis.”  Jonathan and I go back many many years. I’m reminded of a time that we had a meeting of leaders of Jewish believers in the Messiah. At this meeting Jonathan said “I feel like God is directing me to go to the former Soviet Union to evangelize.”  And you laid out a little bit of a plan because you hadn’t done it; you didn’t know what to expect, and it was really shot down but I loved the idea.  Jonathan and I went to the former Soviet Union several times and you… how did you even come up with the concept to go there and do a special event of Jewish music and dance for the Jewish Community?  I know it came from God but how did it happen?

Jonathan: Sid, just reflecting back on the whole experience it was a process that began with a need that I identified which was the plight of Soviet Jews.  Then the conviction in my heart the conviction that the Lord dropped in my heart that He wanted me to be involved in this somehow.  Out of obedience and faith I went to Russia back in 1990 just out of… I walked in the light that I had and that many many Jewish people that were very open of the gospel which led to more trips back and forth.  And then the Lord spoke to me very clearly on an airplane in 1992 and said “Go back to my people and proclaim the good news.”  And I was reading Matthew 24:14 where Yeshua was saying that “Before end will come the gospel has to go to every ethnos.”  In Greek the word ethnos which is translated nation is people group.  And so understanding that the gospels to the Jew first I simply went back in faith and this plan unfolded. It’s all about faith Sid; I have to tell you the Bible’s so clear “Without faith it’s impossible to please God.”  The fight of every believer is the fight of faith. And it really was the call of God and the response in faith that brought this all about.

Sid: Well, I want to take you back to the first night there were advertisements. I was with you, and there were some Messianic Jewish music groups.  That first night we didn’t know what to expect; so we ran ads.  And it’s never been done before it’s a foreign country you need translators.  The auditorium was packed, and then when you gave the altar call explain that moment.  Because I know what happened inside of me I was there, but you explain that moment of what happened inside of you.

Jonathan:  Well, you’re right none of us knew what to expect; I had these dreams of these nightmares of an empty hall and this was a 4,000 seat hall.  I have all my friends there including you and Joyce. And I’m thinking that this is going to be a disaster and I’m going to be embarrassed.  The enemy will do that, but to our amazement the hall was packed we had to turn people away.  And when the time came in the music for me to share I just went out with a microphone and with a spot light.  And I told people how the Lord had changed my life.  I shared some scriptures; very simple scriptures about the Messiah standing at the door of our heart and knocking and whosoever will call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.  And then I gave a simple invitation for people that wanted to respond to come forward.  And Sid to my shock almost the whole auditorium got out of their chairs and came down the altars; just pouring down.

Sid: But I saw something even beyond that Jonathan in addition to what’s you’re saying.  I saw Jewish people running to get saved; I’ve never seen that before in my life! (Laughing)

Jonathan: I haven’t either Sid and most of the people in that hall were Jewish; there were very few people that weren’t Jewish.  And they did they came running down the aisle with their arms outstretched tears on their faces.  And I did everything I could to fight back the tears.  Because even now as I talk about it I’m just gripped by that picture, I’ve never seen anything like it before that.  And of course the years that followed we saw football stadiums filled mostly with Jewish people open to the gospel and responding to the gospel.  Sid we’re living in remarkable days.

Sid: But you know what I want I want to see because I believe the greatest miracles; the greatest evangelism the world has ever see is about ready to happen. So I want those that are listening to be mentored by what you did and I did it right along with you because we’ve been friends for all these years.  What you did what word would you say are the major keys that allowed you to accomplish and be used by God like He used you?

Jonathan:  Well, Sid I believe that everything that we do is lasting is done by faith.  Again, we’re to fight the good fight of faith; “Without faith it’s impossible to please Him.”  It’s all about walking in faith and when we walk in faith we’re able to hear the voice of God.  And I believe the scripture teaches two ways that we can build up faith.  We can walk in faith and actually grow in faith. The first one is praying in other tongues.  I love in the Book of Jude where we have this warning against those that have been sensual which means to become sense controlled.  Controlled by the senses; they have been overtaken by materialism; by the cares of this world; they’ve been deceived. Because the mind; the renewed Sid are against the things of God.  And the exhortation in verse 17 “But you dear friends you don’t have to be this way; you can rise above the senses.” Verse 20 and 21 “You dear friends build yourself up in your most holy faith.”  How?  By praying in the Holy Spirit.  And I believe that’s talking about other tongues.  And one thing that we’ve done together over the years Sid is times of fasting and prayer where we spend hours praying in other languages and it builds up our faith; it releases things.

Sid: You know both of us as new believer’s in the Messiah we came in… there was the Charismatic Movement was going, the Full Gospel Business Men, churches would not say go to the back room and we’ll pray for you to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in a supernatural language.  It hadn’t been demoted to the backroom or out of the church.  You and I would pray days in tongues and at that time I have to tell you Jonathan I knew that it was God and I knew that it was important but I didn’t know how important it was.  Because when we pray in supernatural languages we are first of all faith; we’re prophesying our future, and we’re prophesying our future in perfect prayers with no unbelief and the devil can’t even understand what we’re saying. I am convinced that when you and I were praying in tongues all those years ago I was prophesying the ministry It’s Supernatural; you were prophesying the amazing things you’ve done over the years and we didn’t even have a clue. (Laughing)

Jonathan:   Not only that Sid but through praying in other tongues and bypassing my mind and building my spirit. Which is how we hear the voice of God by the way not with our mind; I moved into new dimensions of intercession of travail, of supplication. I had these experiences Sid as you remember where I would be brought down to the ground in travail.  I was giving birth to things that I didn’t even understand and I believe that was the preparation for the outpouring of the former Soviet Union that we both…

Sid: Others that we’re praying in tongues with us they would start travailing and it’s almost like a woman giving birth.  That’s what we were both doing we were giving birth.  But then the second key is meditating on God’s Word.  And that’s why I’m so excited to be releasing your brand new book “Confessing the Hebrew Scriptures, The Lord is Peace.”    And these are scriptures that you have personally selected on having peace.  And as you explained in yesterday’s broadcast the word peace is Shalom but it means completeness in all the blessings, in all the favor; in all the promises of God.  And you have it in Hebrew and you listen to a native born Israeli speak the promises in Hebrew.  Then you have it transliterated so anyone can speak Hebrew.  And they can speak it out in the promises in the original Hebrew.  There’s something supernatural about the spoken word; I mean the whole earth was created with the words of the Living God.  But it’s being spoken in Hebrew.  It’s changing the chemistry of your body and then it’s in English and you have a CD so not only can they read it phonetically as this transliteration method that Jewish Community developed so that we could read Hebrew.  But now instantly people can read it in Hebrew.  And people are taking this book and this powerful CD; they’re going to sleep with it at night, they’re doing it during the day.  They’re making it a wonderful gift.  And the book is so beautiful it would make a beautiful book to just put on the coffee table… Jonathan tell me we did this once before on Hebrew Scriptures on healing.  Tell me what feedback you got from the people that got a hold of this kit.

Jonathan:   Sid do I have time to read a quick letter.

Sid: Go for it.

Jonathan: I got it – we had just released Adonai or Jehovah Shalom it’s brand new; but the healing one has been out for a couple of years on scriptures that confess  or proclaim the Lord is Our Healer and Health. I got a beautiful letter from a Pastor that says “He had a woman in their congregation who was dying with leukemia.  I ordered the set for her and the doctors gave her 10 to 12 days to live.  I gave her the CD and asked her to listen to it continually with our prayers, our faith in the scriptures in Hebrew God healed her.  The same doctors came in and told her that she does not have any leukemia cells at all.  Plus her body is producing the blood again and she’s not dying but will live and declare the works of the Lord.”

Sid:  If you’ve been listening this week you’re getting clues; literally you’re getting supernatural coaching.  And my guest is a coach of the supernatural of God he’s also a football coach; you’ve heard of him Coach Bill McCartney.  God used him to start Promise Keepers and I mean I’m overwhelmed they had 1.4 million men gathered to worship God in one arena. 1.4 million men from all different types of Christian backgrounds that’s a supernatural feat. You know in the Bible it says “Despise not small beginnings.” I would imagine that the nucleus of Promise Keepers began at the 6:15 AM Bible study you had with 5 guys.

Coach:  Yes, way back when I first came to Christ at the age of 33; five of us agreed, actually there was 6, 5 other guys and myself agreed to meet in a restaurant just outside of Detroit.  I was Coaching at the University of Michigan so I would drive 35 miles east into Detroit right off of the expressway we’d met an then it was so good; our time together was so good that we started to invite other guys.  And soon we were 2 tables and then there were 3 tables of guys, and then pretty soon it the only way it made any sense we were having between 25, 30, 40 guys every Tuesday morning at 6:15 that we had a speaker.  And then they weren’t going to chase us out of this restaurant because we were bringing a lot of business that they weren’t getting.  And…

Sid: What did you do at this Bible study?

Coach:  Well, it started out when there was just a few of us as we opened the word of God and just kind of shared what God was doing in each other’s lives and we were holding each other accountable.  We were sharing some of our struggles; it was kind of a accountability group but it grew to go beyond the boundaries of accountability there was so many men flocking into this restaurant.  This restaurant was just a breakfast dive and I mean it wasn’t an attractive place at all, but God was showing up and so it started up with 6 of us and then pretty soon there were 25, and 30 and then 40.  And just 60 and then every Tuesday morning there were 80 adult men gathered to hear the word of God and it went from there to 120.  And the restaurant didn’t even hold 120; it was exploding and then that’s when God showed me in men there’s a longing there’s a craving for authenticity; there’s a craving within men for a real man as a godly man. A man of real substance and fiber and strength and significance and he’s a godly man.  I got to tell you for every guy that came and came back there was at least one other guy who would come look around the room and see somebody he didn’t trust and he was out of there and he never came back.  For those that came back and surrendered their hearts to the Lord none of us have ever been the same; God’s just radically resurrected a right spirit within us.

Sid: Now that was the nucleus the beginning but how does someone go from this 120 men that are jammed into a restaurant to the 1.4 million; what happened next?

Coach:  What happened was I began cheering after some extraordinary experiences in the University of Colorado where God was just showing Himself strong in the midst of my football program.  I began sharing with men that I believe that if we went after Him we could fill stadiums with men.  So the last Saturday in July of 1990, 72 men gathered together in a small church in Boulder, Colorado and they came there to hear the vision.  And I shared with them that I believed that if we trusted God and we went after it we would see stadiums filled with men and these guys…

Sid: Now where did you get this thought from? How did that happen?

Coach: There was another guy and myself he was at the time he was the President of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes in Colorado and he invited me to speak at a fund raising banquet at Pueblo, Colorado. It was a 3 hour car ride from Boulder and on the way we were just kind of sharing our hearts together.  And I said to him his name is Dave Hordell, I said “Dave if you could do anything with your life money not withstanding what would you do?”  And he didn’t even hesitate he said “Coach he said I would disciple men one on one; I’d meet with them on street corners, coffee shops and I’d lead them into a discipline walk with Jesus Christ.”  He said “How about you Coach if you could do anything in your life what would you do?”  I said, “Dave I believe that God would fill stadiums with men and if we asked Him to do it and we went after these men.”  So he and I kind of felt that the Lord was in that and we felt that we agreed to pursue that.  And that’s how in 70 we invited just friends; he knew more guys than I did and that’s how many guys showed up.  We didn’t know at the time that it would be a Biblical number but 72 guys showed up in a church and I shared what I said and Dave shared what he said and we said “We think God’s in this, would you agree to fast and pray and let’s see what God will do.”  So the next… in the months that followed we prayed and then I took my vacation time.  A College football coach only gets 1 month a year in vacation and that’s the month of July the way that we worked it. So I took my month instead and I went and knocked on the doors of all the churches in Colorado.  If the pastor was there I sat with him and told him of our vision; if he wasn’t there I left him a leaflet and just explaining an event that we were going to have. So the last Saturday in July 1991 and a year later 4200 men showed up in the basketball arena in Boulder, Colorado.  God was all over it and God united that thing.

Sid: Why does God want this, why is God so eager for this? Why I mean why not just men and woman? What is it about men that was so special to God in this moment in history?

Coach:  Isaiah 38:19 says “A father to the children shall make known the truth.”  You know they’ve done studies.  If mom comes to faith in Jesus Christ there’s a 19% chance the whole family will.  If a teenage son comes to faith in Yeshua there is a 31% chance, it’s greater.  But if dad comes to faith in Yeshua, there is a 92% chance the whole family will.  It’s the providence of God.  The man is to be the spiritual leader in the home but the definition of a spiritual leader is a servant.  A guy that lays down his life for his family and so it’s always been in the heart of God.  But I got to tell you what was in my heart was the brotherhood of believers.  In other words, here I am a coach I understand the component of a team and how we need each other.  And so as a born again Christian who was involved in building teams what was in my heart was that the body of Christ would come together.  And never forget this, at the very first event for Promise Keepers that when there were 4200 men there it was my privilege to close out the program. I was standing at the platform looking out; 600 guys had gotten saved, the worship was off the charts. None of us had ever felt the Spirit of God in that way before; it was way beyond anything that any of us had known personally.  I mean it was electric in there and so I felt like the Lord whispered to me and He said “Coach, look at these men and tell Me what you see.  And I said “God I see guys who are excited about the gospel.” He said “Well, what else do you see?”  And I said “There almost all white guys.”  He said “You get up and tell them because see we had challenged the 4200 men if each one of you goes out and gets 1 guy a month for the next 12 months we can go from 4200 here to 50,000 in a football stadium.  In other words we can turn this into something extraordinary if we’ll just step out in faith now that God has allowed us to taste this.  Well, God said “You get up and tell them if they fill that stadium with 50,000 white guys I ain’t coming.”

Sid: Hm.

Coach:   And so I did, you know I got up and I said “God just spoke to me and told me that if we fill this stadium with 50,000 white guys He’s not coming.”  Well, I came under attack, they said “The coach, bless his heart, you know he means well but he contradicted the word of God said ‘If two or more gathered together in My name I am there.’”  But the truth is I had not contradicted the word of God because when two or more gather in His Name you gather in his character, you gather in the fullness of the Father’s heart.  And the Fathers’ heart is for all of His Sons.  See what God birthed in Promise Keepers was a bonding of the brotherhood, what God wanted was that all of His sons would come together across all boundaries.  And quite frankly Sid we unwittingly did not understand how the Messianic Community was supposed to participate in that.  When you talk about the 1.4 million men that was the first time the Messianic Community was there.   It was in the Mall in Washington DC. We all knelt, if you’ve ever seen 1.4 million men all on their faces.  Every one of us all had our face on the ground and we submitted ourselves to the Lord.  Well, it was at that event…

Sid: I’ll tell you what hold that thought, I know you’ll be back tomorrow….

Sid: My guest by way of telephone at his home in Atlanta, Georgia, Dr. Howard Morgan. I’m interviewing him on his book “Leaves From the Olive Tree” which he shows exactly how Christianity has deviated from the Judaic Biblical pattern, moved to a Greco-Roman pattern, and it was ever so subtle to the point that today you can’t tell the difference between Bible and tradition. Two thousand years ago the greatest rabbi that ever lived, His name was Yeshua. He went into the synagogue and this is what He said: “Your tradition makes void the power of God.” Why? We Jewish people for thousands of years started with a genuine act of God, but the human is you add layer and layer and layer and layer of tradition down. You deviate from the pattern. Well God said that Christianity has been around, this is in word to Dr. Howard Morgan that Christianity has been around for 2000 years. The same thing that happened to us Jewish people has happened to Christianity.  If He walked into the best churches today he would say “Your tradition has made void the power of God.” Dr. Howard Morgan on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking how the church veered little by little into Greco-Roman culture. I want you to explain how it deviated from what the pattern should have been. Where is it now, and where should it be?

Dr. Morgan: Well I think the answer to that question goes to the crux of what Greco-Roman philosophy taught. You know that man was the sum of all things, and the whole idea is summed up in, “I think, therefore I am.” So everything was all about what we think and what we feel. Into the midst of this comes the revelation of the Torah and the Brit Hachadashah in which God says “He is the center of everything.” So there is a difference between rationalism, that is “How I rationalize things,” and revelation is what God says to me. So if God speaks to me I have to lay down my understanding and trust the Lord, and then have a walk of faith by the Spirit and not by my sight. We walk in Proverbs 3 where “We trust in the Lord with all our heart and do not lean on our own understanding.” That’s completely contrary to the humanistic, if you will, came out of Greco-Roman culture particularly the Greek philosophers where everything is based on what you can see with your eyes, you’re limited to your senses. In the Spirit Jesus said “If you were born from above” now a river of living water can flow out of you, you can live by revelation. So we can either live rational lives, or revelational lives. This doesn’t mean that we will be irrational, we don’t leave our mind out we love the Lord our God with our whole mind, but our mind is submitted to the revelation of the Spirit. Then we can walk with the Living God which is the invitation of the covenants that God made with Israel through Sinai, then through the nations of the world through the resurrection of beloved Messiah that everybody is now invited into a revelation walk of faith with God.

Sid: Okay everyone is, and most real Christians would say “I agree with what Howard has said.”

Dr. Morgan: Right.

Sid: But it’s not playing out in the institution called the church. Why?

Dr. Morgan: That’s again because we go back, and I encourage all of our listeners to be students of history. Read church history, read secular history, read Jewish history and you will see how little by little political things moved people away. People vied for power and authority, they used church offices, they established institutions and organizational dynamics to control other people so that one group of the elite had the power the “Clergy,” then they kept the laity suppressed. You know in the body of Christ Sid there is no such thing as Clergy and laity. This is something that came out of the Christian religion, if we study the Torah we see that EVERYBODY had access to God. EVERYBODY had the opportunity to come to the tabernacle, or the temple, have the atonement made. They were all represented by the high priest there was not this kind of hierarchy. The priest served the purposes of God in the lives of the people. We talked… the other broadcast about how Paul was expressing his heart. He wanted to do everything by whatever way he could to bring people to maturity. You study church history you don’t see that at all, you see people dominating other people, controlling other people to the point Sid that the church was guilty of murder literally persecuting and murdering other believers because they didn’t do what they wanted them to do. They believe it the way they wanted to believe it and they became a threat to their power. “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” is one book and that was written in the 1500’s that talks in horrendous ways about the bloodshed of the church. Of course as Jews we know what the church did to the Jewish people, our people down through the centuries and it’s still happening as you read things and reports on the internet, and churches are talking in horrendous ways about Israel.

Sid: Howie, as you talked earlier let’s bring things down to the lowest common denominator. Yes God loves the church, of course He does Jesus came to die so that the body of Messiah could be formed.

Dr. Morgan: Amen.

Sid: But, even the good churches have deviated from the pattern which is literally not by words but by action is just cutting the glory that God wants released in the church.

Dr. Morgan: Yes.

Sid: Now my heart and yours is to release that glory. So here’s what I want you to do, I want you to take me Sunday morning and you now are walking into a building called “Your Church” and take me step by step and show me what we have and where it deviated.

Dr. Morgan: Okay. I think the first thing we’re going to look at is the fact that there are pews in this building and most people are sitting back to back where we are looking at the back of someone’s head. So right away architecturally the dynamic is that everything is focused up on the platform, and then everything really on the platform then gets focused on the pulpit. So we have a pulpit centered building to create a pulpit centered experience. We are always looking for what is going to happen on the stage. The dynamic in the New Covenant is that everybody is supposed to bring a gift, everybody is supposed to be equipped and everybody is supposed to be participating. So instead of having everybody participating we have few people actively participating and most people are simply being spectators. So we go into this building where this is a “religious” spectacle taking place, a “religious” service taking place. So we go for the service instead of being equipped for service. There’s the dynamic then of… for example what we call praise and worship. So many times what we call praise and worship are song services that are structured by the clock. How many times have we been in church buildings and looked from the platform and saw this clock staring at us telling us that you have to begin at a certain time, and you have to end at a certain time because the theatre is scripted. The service is contrived and then it is controlled. Jesus said “That the children of God would be like the wind. You don’t know where it’s coming from, you don’t know where it’s going.” You can just see the effect thereof the glory of God when the Holy Spirit moves. If we have created, even in the good churches as you said, a mentality that we’re here for a service and we are going to go for an hour and a half, rather than saying “Holy Spirit come this is the day that the Lord has made.” We want to be free to allow the Holy Spirit come so that we can not cut the worship off. How many times have we and so many people said to us “I’ve been so frustrated because just as the worship was reaching a crescendo where we were about to break through into another level in the spirit somebody got up to make an announcement.” Somebody got up to do something else and we left so frustrated because of the spirit of religion wouldn’t let us in, didn’t take us to the next level. It was like having the key of knowledge but not using it and nobody was going in because the mentality of the way the Christian service is operating is according to the clock. It’s according to we’re going to do this at this time, and this at that time and people say “Yes, but if it goes too long the children… you know they get upset and they get bored and we don’t have the workers.” I say to people “Go back to your Jewish roots.” God said, I believe it’s in Deuteronomy 18, “That you know you teach your children as you go in the morning, in the evening so your children stay with you all day. If they’re hungry feed them.” “Oh no!” in some churches the board of demons shows up and says “You can’t have food in the sanctuary.”

Sid: (Laughing)

Dr. Morgan: “…but I have a hungry child.” So what if the carpet gets stained what’s more important my son or daughter staying in the presence of God in the anointing of the Holy Spirit that changes their life forever? Or we take them out to feed them because God forbid the carpet gets stained. I’ll stain the carpet!

Sid: (Laughing)

Dr. Morgan: Jesus put oil and wine right on the altar and stained the brand new carpet so that nobody can complain about the stains in the carpet because we’ve got the wrong mentality Sid of going to a service rather than being equipped for service and giving the Holy Spirit the kind of freedom that he really needs to do the deep work in people’s hearts.

Sid: You know Howie we’re out of time today, but I want you to pick up on tomorrow’s broadcast. You state because that the system because it’s Greco-Roman rather than Hebraic is almost an emperor type system.

Dr. Morgan: Yes.

Sid: Then you, I’m quoting your book, “The emperor only sees your value as you work to accomplish his goals.”

Dr. Morgan: Right.

Sid: That’s pretty explosive, but we’ll pick up right there.