Sid: I’ve got two people that are red-hot for the Messiah; they’re Mishpochah in the flesh they’re my brother-in-law and my sister, Marc and Shirley. They have recently made Aliyah 3 years ago.  That means they immigrated to Israel at the height of the Intifada, the suicide bombers and everything else that’s going on there.  If you knew my sister you would know no one short of God Himself could have called her to leave her family.  She’s so family oriented; she’s got two sons that are married with children.  And she’s so family centered there should have been no reason short of a dream from God.  They knew that they knew, that they knew that God was calling them to Israel.  And I must I have my sister Shirley on the phone, but I really believe what you said on yesterday’s broadcast after having that dream you believe that God was showing you Jeremiah 16.  You know I remember you said in that dream that you said that you got on the last plane to Israel.  I believe that prophetically speaking we’re about ready to see the last plane for Jewish people to get to Israel right now.  I believe that God is using this broadcast to speak to people but I want… Shirley in the natural you walk into this “War zone.” You leave your family, you’re in good health you and your husband, you’re in good shape financially.  You get to Israel you feel tremendous peace and here you are now in a land that you don’t even speak the language.  Tell me some of your most fond experiences over the last 3 years.

Shirley:  Oh, there’s so many, we have seen God’s grace and love for us every single day we’re there.  It’s just amazing to us; for example we walk into a bakery; it’s Marc’s birthday and I’m looking for some goodies to serve some company that are coming over that evening.  And we’ve never been in this bakery before and the little clerk; young lady behind the counter. We start talking to her and say “We’re new Ohleem and we say “We don’t speak the language, do you speak English?” And she says “Oh, yes I speak English.” and we start talking and she said “You want some coffee?”  And I thought she wanted to sell us some coffee; and she said “No, no it’s a gift.”  And I said “You want to give us coffee?” And she said “Yes.”  And I said “Well, thank you.”  So we go sit down and she’s bringing the coffee cups towards us and I get up to get them from there.  And she says “Oh, no I want to serve you.”  This is a complete stranger, then Marc and I are sitting there sipping the coffee looking at each other saying “Boy, this is nice and she comes over with this big pastry.”  And I said “No thank you we don’t want any pastry right now.”  And she said “No, no this is a gift from me to you.”  And I said “A gift…”  Well, I said “Thank you,” You know you don’t turn down a gift and so this young lady she has become like a daughter to us.  Every time we come into this bakery she comes around the counter and gives us a big hug and says “How have you been, why have you stayed away so long?”  She’s like family to us; and this has not happened to us just one time.  We’re sitting in a restaurant having coffee and the waiter by the time we’re ready to leave the restaurant is inviting us to his house for an evening.  The people are unbelievably warm and they just take you into their lives like their long lost relatives.  We just love Israel.

Sid: How fearful are you when you get up in the morning and when you get your coffee.  What is that Hebrew word for coffee that you get?

Shirley:  Ah Café Afuq, different.

Sid:  Okay. Watch your language okay I’m just teasing go ahead. But how do you feel really?  When you open the newspaper, when you see TV and suicide bombers all over the place and surrounded by people that hate you.  Europe hates Israel with a passion. I mean the whole world outside the United States hates Israel and is favoring the Palestinians for a state. How do you feel?

Shirley:  You are 100% in what you said. I feel safer in Israel then I do in the United States to tell you the truth.  They know what they’re doing, they know how to take care of situations immediately; not 20 minutes or 15 minutes down the road.  They have security guards all around the mall every entrance.  So even though there’s a large crowd there I feel so safe; everybody that’s gone into that mall has been checked. And they’re belongings have been checked.  I feel very safe there; but the bottom line is you are in the safest place if you are where God want you to be. And we know with all our hearts that that is where God wants us to be and in the natural it doesn’t make sense that we’re there.  Because we’re not doing a big ministry for God or anything.  We’re just being obedient to God and He is opening up doors for us as we walk with relationships with different people.  I’ll tell you; in Israel it’s so exciting because like in the United States all our friends were believers.  But in Israel like it’s 50% believers 50% nonbelievers now.

Sid: Are many Jewish people coming to the Lord?

Shirley:   They’re coming but not many, not in 100’s in like 10, 12, you know small numbers they’re coming.  But they’re very open; our friends that don’t know the Lord yet; we believe that they’re our friends because I believe there was that connection there to make us friends because God wants them to come to know Him. And we are talking to them and they are so open to listening to what we have to say.  They’re interested in our testimony; they’re interested why we’re in the land.  Many of the Russians there especially ask us “Why are you here, we had to come here but you had a choice?”  It’s a testimony in itself just us being there.

Sid: Let me ask you a question; you’ve like myself we learned how to read Hebrew and Marc the same.  We didn’t understand many words at all; you knew zilch really.  And you and your husband are in Ulpan, that’s where you’re studying the language.  How old are you you know I’m told not to ask this question.  How old is your husband how’s that.

Shirley:  My husband’s much older than me; not really; 67…

Sid: Alright 67.

Shirley:   Yes.

Sid: How are you and your husband learning Hebrew at these ages?

Shirley:  I’ll tell you it’s hard but God has given us such a love for the language.  I never like languages going through college and I was never a scholar in languages.  But in Israel we both love studying Hebrew.  And we are now at the point that we can speak Hebrew. We can have a short conversation; we can tell people our needs or our wants but it’s something God has given us.  We just love learning Hebrew and our teacher and the students in our class have become like a family to us.  We love them; they love us.

Sid: Shirley speak to that Jewish person that’s listening to us right now and that says “I wonder God are you calling us to Israel?”

Shirley:  (Laughing) First of all I’d like to say don’t believe everything you hear in the news.  The news is definitely prejudice.  I’d say if God speaking to you be obedient; we have never been happier in our lives.  And we’ve had a wonderful life; but we feel like we’re on the biggest adventure with the Lord than we’ve ever had before.  So all I can say is if you feel God is telling you something be obedient to what He says.

Sid: Well, I’m going to tell you something right now. I am going to tell you that the one thing you know, that you know; that you know; that you know is that this is the set time to favor Zion.  And God wants desperately Jewish people to come to know Him.

Sid: Guess what, my guest in the studio his name is Jose Santana and the Spirit of God has just descended in this studio and I am expecting the miraculous.  Don’t you dare touch that dial, stay right where you are.  In my studio is Jose Santana he is a New Covenant Prophet, he’s from the Rochester, New York area.  He’s an apostle, he works with backslidden pastors.  God has entrusted him with a wonderful gift of prophesy.  Most people I know merchandise their gift in the wrong way.  Because they live an unholy life they don’t even have the gift it comes out as mixture and it’s a stench in the eyes of a holy God.  Jose how do you protect your gift; you have a wonderful gift; I mean how do you protect it?  People probably put you on platforms; they’ll do anything for you.  “Give me a word, give me a word.”  That must be what everyone says to you that meet you; how do you protect the gift from being cynical, from not walking a holy life?

Jose:  Well, I protect it by first honoring the one that gave me the gift the Lord Jesus Christ.  And when He gave me the gift I asked the Lord “I will never ever forget who is in control of this gift, it’s You.” What was the reason that I asked for the gift was to serve the body of Christ to be a blessing to other.  I’m one of the least of the least of all the saints, this gift was given to me so that I could serve the Body.

Sid: Now tell me the circumstances as to what was going on in your life when the gift really started developing.  Were you praying for this gift?

Jose:  Yes Sir; I was praying about 2 ½ – 3 years because people would come to the church and say “And God spoke to me; and God showed me this.” And I said “Lord would You consider, speaking to me; would You consider…”

Sid: Did you really talk to Him that way, “Would you consider?”

Jose:  Yes.

Sid: That really is a respect there.

Jose:  And He gave me the scripture of 2^nd Corinthians 2:9 that declare that “Eye have not seen and ears have not heard.”  So I went to bed with that scripture and I said “Lord if I have not seen; open my eyes that I may see; and if ears have not heard speak to your servant that I may hear You.”  And I went 2 maybe 3 years with that scripture and one day I’m walking in the church and I see a brother with his whole body almost dying, that the enemy has thrown some darts. He was not using the shield of faith.  And I said “Oh, Lord what is this all about?”  And He explained and that was the first time I had ever seen in the spirit.

Sid:  Alright, you saw that.

Jose:  Yes

Sid: And what did you do about it?

Jose:  Yes, I was so overwhelmed and I went to pray and I said “Lord why are you showing me this thing?’  And He told me “Tell My people that they must use the shield of faith because they are in war with Satan.”  I warned them.

Sid: And there are so many people listening to us right now and they have so many fears and they have these darts that have been coming at them.  And what they have to learn is not just that shield of faith to knock it down but they have to have a sword to give the demon behind that thought the business.  And the sword is speaking the Word.

Jose:  Speaking the Word; Amen.

Sid: Do you ever sometimes concern about the gift that you have? Or worried that when God gives you a Word… I assume that you have good Words but you have also assume you have very negative Words.  Do you ever see people sins?

Jose:  Absolutely, a lot of times we have an encounter with the prophetic and the Holy Ghost is moving so powerful and the Lord is giving me good words. And I could hear the thoughts of the people when they’re going back to the seats and they were said “Ah, Lord this man of God has the wrong person Lord” I hear every thought so I have to call them back out of the chair and say “How come you told the Lord that I have the wrong person?”  And usually 99% they cover their mouth and they repent because it’s the anointing of God.  The Spirit of God searches the deep things of God.

Sid: Jose, can this gift that you have operate at will whenever you want it to operate?

Jose:  No, it only has the Holy Spirit of God release, I could not see unless He allows me to see.  I cannot hear only if He’s speaking to me, it’s only by His doing.

Sid: So tell me, what would happen if the next 5 prophetic words you gave the people came back and said “Jose you said I was going to have a child.  I didn’t have a child. Jose they all turned out to be wrong; what would you do?”

Jose:  Well, that would bring to examine myself because then I was operating in the flesh. Like I got a friend and he’s a pastor and we went to his kitchen and there was a whole lot of people there and the Holy Spirit spoke to me “Tell my daughter the next year at God’s appointed time of birth she will have a baby boy and the baby boy will be a pastor.”  And I’m not thinking about none of these things but when He speaks, I recognize His voice.  And that is the only way I speak, when He speaks to me.

Sid: I’ve noticed Mishpochah because I’ve asked him things and he won’t answer.  He’ll say “I’ll tell you what the Bible says” but he won’t answer but I’ll tell you what God said.  But I actually question and maybe I’m going to get in trouble now Jose I question those that can prophesy at will.  I believe it’s as the Spirit of God wills.

Jose:   It is very dangerous because what happens people will prophesy out of will they have a tendency of tapping into a familiar spirit.  And that’s not of God that’s of the other guy.

Sid: And that’s a very scary thing.

Jose:  Oh yes it is.

Sid:  Because they’re intent could have been honorable and they could be deceived.

Jose:  Right, they crossed the border.

Sid: And that’s happened unfortunately to a lot of people.  You must have a great deal of insight on how all of us that perhaps are not prophets but we can all prophesy on how we can hear God better. Because as far as I’m concerned if someone has tasted the goodness of God the only thing that counts in their life is to hear God and be obedient to God plus nothing.

Jose:  I’m so excited that you asked me that question.  I do seminars of the prophetic but I share with people how they can keep the spiritual pump primed.  And they go “What are you talking about.”  I said “I see you driving a car and going from Georgia to the Carolina and all of a sudden the Lord put a thought on your heart to call a friend that you haven’t spoken in 3 months.  And you go I will do that later, wrong if you train yourself to park your car and make a phone call at that time God will put words. God will use you as an instrument just as you avail yourself.”

Sid: What if you wait a day.

Jose:  It might be too late; let me give you an example of when I first started to operate in the gift we were invited to a company party. I just sat in the seat and the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said “Get out of there and go to your brother.”  So I told my wife “We have to go.”  She says “Why, we just came.”  “We have to go if you don’t go with me I’m leaving you behind.  So she said “Let’s go.”  So we go to my brother and I knock at his door and we waited 8 minutes and then he put the light and he came down.  So my brother’s name if Tony, so I said “Tony, are you okay.”  He said “He said “Yes.”  The third time he told me “I was this close of killing myself.”

Sid: Hmm.

Jose:  So, of my obedience his life was saved.

Sid: And you know what God says “If I can trust you in little things; I can trust you in big things.

Jose:  Hmm. 

Sid: And what happens to me I’ll get faked out and I’ll say many times, that’s my thought, that’s not God.  But I also know it’s God.  In the past I got faked out, I’m not going to get faked out now

Jose:  Amen.

Sid: But many of us do.

Jose: Yes.

Sid:  Jose we’ve just really met and I was telling you in my office before we started this interview that God has entrusted to me a very very precious vision. I’ve labeled it what Paul called it “The One New Man.”  Because in Ephesians he said “The reason that Jesus came was to break down the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles to form One New Man.”  Or we might paraphrase that as “The complete body of the Messiah.”  Because the Jew that believes in Jesus without the Gentle that believes in Jesus is incomplete. The Gentle that believes in Jesus without the Jew that believes in Jesus is incomplete.  And I was explaining in the office I’ve been to many reconciliation meetings between let’s say black and white Christians.  And it’s what I call a 24 hour wonder; they’ll even go so far as washing feet.  But at the end of 24 hours the black pastors go back to their black churches and the white pastors go back to their white churches and nothing changes.  Could it be Jose that because we haven’t approached the foundational sin, the rift between Jews and Gentiles, we can never address the other sins the rifts between races and all the other differences in theology and all of these other differences?  And so God has entrusted this One New Man.  I got such a revelation the other day.  I found out that where it talks about New Covenant and it’s prophesied in the Old Testament in Hebrew and in the New Testament in English.  The word new which means never existed before is a mistranslated.  The word really is renew.

Jose:  Amen. 

Sid: Meaning that you take the scriptures in the Old Testament and you don’t throw them out.  You take the festivals in the Old Covenant and you don’t toss them out. You renew them with the meaning of Messiah who has come and rose from the dead.  And I’m seeing that this is… the definition of insanity Jose is to keep doing the same thing the same way and expect different results.

Jose:  That’s right.

Sid: It’s insane; well I believe that when the church understands this renewed covenant and we need money in this ministry to get this word out.  I’m calling this week for those to plant a seed in this ministry; maybe you’ve never sent to any ministry ever before.  I bless you with Genesis 12:3.

Sid:  The devil has been trying so hard to separate Jews and Christians, but devil it’s too late because there is a move of God’s Spirit that is removing the spiritual scales from the eyes of Jewish people.  What Paul describes the glorious church because it is so explosive with the Spirit of God and the glory of God.  I mean when you walk into a gather of believers and when people hear me say church they think building.  No it doesn’t matter.  This is God’s house; no no no God’s house is we’re believers gathered together.  God’s house is in the believers not in the building.  When these believers come together; when that glorious church is restored.  When the Jewish olive tree comes back in that tree is going to get so healthy that people will walk into the gathering of believers whether it’s in your house or it’s in the cathedral it doesn’t matter.  The Spirit of God, the glory of God will be just so leased that everyone will be healed; they’ll repent to sins.  And then we’ll have what the Bible says and not the best we can do until we have what the Bible says.  I want what the Bible says; nothing more, nothing less.  Jesus said, “You will do the same works that I’ve done and even greater.”  I have a man on the telephone I’m talking to him at his home at Alexandria, Louisiana.  His name is Dr. David Remedious; David is a Vascular Surgeon but very different than most surgeons.  He’s one that hears God’s voice.  He’s one that operates in the gift of visions where he literally will be speaking to someone and have an open vision of how to solve their problem through surgery or perhaps another method.  On yesterday’s broadcast David you were talking about one of your patients, Dee Sap and will you continue.

David:  That is correct we were in the emergency room and of course we decide; she has a surgery abdomen wound and we have to take her to surgery.  Her husband and I; her husband is a minister and myself we just prayed and we just asked God to just intervene and for God to send His angels literally ministering spirits.  That’s exactly what I said “Lord send Your angels and ministering spirits into that operating room.”  Of course I pray that all the time before (chuckling) but little did I know that was what was about to occur  at that point in time.  And so I took her into the operating room and when I opened up her abdomen I was very surprised her gallbladder was gangrenous; this tumor in the transverse colon had totally obstructed her bowel, and the sekum was about to explode; so it was a very tenuous situation.  So at that point obviously what I would do because we’re dealing with infection.  This is just principals of surgery; these are just things that we’ve got to do.  This is very serious by the way; so I don’t want to make light of any of this.  This is extremely serious this is human life on the balance so to me obviously because of my professional training; because of the oath that I’ve taken and there’s a great sense of sobriety over my, if I even tell this story.  But I began to operate and obviously I would just take out the gallbladder and I would take out the colon; I’d take out the right part of the colon the right hemicolectomy obviously ileostomy and a colostomy and obviously as a surgical principal you’re not supposed to put the bowel back together because we had infection in the area.

Sid: Now did you prepare her ahead of time that that’s what you’ll do?

David:  There was no way of repairing the bowel because she was totally obstructed.  So that’s just the way….

Sid: Did you mention to her that she might need… or you

David:  Oh yeah about a colostomy yes.

Sid:  That’s a very radical thing it’ll be a total change of her life.

David:    Yes, correct and so as I’m doing that it was so clear that the Lord, the Spirit.  First of all there was a very… for one of the dramatic times in my career and I’m not in church and all of sudden the presence of God invades the operating suite.  So I’m very intensely operating I’m concentrating on what I’m doing.  And all of a sudden this wonderful incredible awesome presence just shows up in that operating room.  I’m going “This is awesome I recognize the presence of God” and I look around and look at the people and obviously my assistant is handing me the instruments and circling nurse is doing her thing and everything is going normal.

Sid: I have seen you in person when the power of God comes on you and you start shaking.  Oi vey if you’re a surgeon that’s shaking. (Laughing)

David:  (Laughing) Well, it’s amazing when the anointing comes on me when I’m operating my movements like at a church setting it’s become very very precise.  The concentration become extremely intense and so it’s sort of like; I don’t know it’s such preciseness that comes.  There’s an incredible tangible anointing and obviously losing control would not be of help in an operating room.  So God knows exactly how to direct our movements.  So I become very focused so I looked around me and it was so clear to me that the voice that I saw myself putting that colon and putting it back, sewing it back together.  And closing the skin; see I was supposed to have left the skin open.  And that’s just a normal basic thing that one would do as a surgeon.  And so I’m sitting there and I’m just thinking this and why would I be thinking this and why would I be thinking that.  I’m supposed to leave an ileostomy and colostomy and so for the second time it was so strong that so strong impression I’m trying to think logically.  “Well, that’s not right.”  I can’t be doing this and after the second time I just said out loud “I need another opinion.”  So I asked a colleague of mine to come in. A very wonderful surgeon came in and he looked.  And I said “What would you do so so?”  And he said “Well I would be ileostomy and a colostomy and I would leave the skin open.”  And I said “Well, that’s what I was planning on doing too.”

Sid: That’s the standard procedure

David:    Well of course, of course and by the way I’m not in any way making light of this because this is such serious and somber.  You understand this is very very serious and forget about license and forget about a title this is not even about this; this about a human being and their life.  And so I want everyone this is not just “Well, I just saw a vision and I just did it.”  Oh, no to me I was faced really with a most incredible, awesome sense of responsibility. This is the way I am trained I’m trained to save lives and that’s my passion.  But this was one of those moments when both seemed to come in apparent contradiction to each other. What do you do at that point?  What do you do?  Well, before me was a decision of “Well, if I obey what I’m feeling in my heart obviously I’m putting this person’s life in jeopardy and that’s you know no physician out there wants to do that.  And I’m not about to and I wouldn’t do that either because that’s very very serious and so.

Sid: And so if there were 100 vascular surgeons how many would approach this the way you approached it?

David:  What I ended up doing no I don’t think none of them.

Sid: Okay, go ahead.

David:   And that’s why literally God was asking me taking me out of my totally out of comfort zone and asking me to trust Him totally with what He was doing. And obviously I was thinking; this is not an easy decision.  I had a group of people around me and after that surgeon walked out of the room the third time He said just go ahead and do it.  So I said “Lord I do trust You and I do know Your voice.” And He did not come out for me to hear the voice of the Lord at that point but He had begun when I was a youngster in New York City. So I learned to trust Him and you know I want the people listening to me to understand that this is not; this is very serious and I did it and…

Sid: But wait a second David with what is going to happen of planet earth we need to hear His voice to save our lives based on.  Look when that tsunami hit if you could have heard God you would have run up to a high mountain with enough time.

David:  Right that is correct and that same voice that protected my life numerous times when I was younger now was there to save someone else’s life.  But at the same time everything that I had worked for all these years with so much sacrifice was also being put on the line.  So does that make sense; it was sort of like it was a very very… I was stepping back and I said “Okay, I know what He’s done I’m going to obey and I’m going to trust Him.”

Sid: I have to ask you a quick question this was a couple that was suing you over land; did it occur to you if you missed it the land suit would be nothing compared to what would have happened?  Oh, absolutely and that’s what made it even more dramatic to me because I went “Lord, are you serious?”  There was all these thoughts going through my mind but knew where my heart and I did it I closed.  I put the bowel together, I closed the skin.  

Sid: David, hold that thought we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast.

Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand one of the biggest fastest moving heresies in the Body of Believers today. I have Dr. Michael Brown and we’re talking about his brand new book; it’s not in the stores yet but we have it available.  It’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.”  Now Mike I just find it hard to believe that some people are teaching on such a marvelous subject of true Biblical grace.  You and I would not be here if there wasn’t true Biblical grace, but I find it so difficult to believe that some people are teaching some of the things that we’ll talk about today and others are believing it. For instance some are saying “Has God already forgiven all of our future sins, so we can do anything we want?”

Michael:  Well let see here is what they’d say none of them would say “You can do whatever you want.” The problem again is human nature being what it is; people struggling; temptation; the world; Satan.  We know that there is a lot in the New Testament that addresses purity of life and conduct and so on. If you’re told your future sins have already been forgiven; and that leads to a few other things.  I have several chapters in my book that deal with this.  And by the way the book is written so anyone can pick it up; whether you’ve been saved 6 months, whether you are a pastor leader, anyone can pick it up read it and follow it. I document every single quote even something from the internet; everything taken in context. Nobody treated in fairly; I say a hardy amen to all the good points these folks are making and then say “Caution, caution, danger.” So here’s the thing.  If you are told that all your future sins were forgiven the moment you got saved God not only said “Sid I forgive you; Mike I forgive you for shooting heroine, for stealing money from your father, for your pride, for your rebellion, for your lust, for your sin and everything else. I forgive you for everything you ever done; I give a clean slate I pronounce you righteous, My child.”  Not only that He also said “Mike I have already pronounced you forgiven for every sin you’ll ever commit for the rest of your life; don’t be sin conscience; don’t think about…

Sid: By the way that’s a very important phrase.  I’m the one you know 30 – 40 years ago there was legalism; today there is hyper-grace; they’re both just as bad.

Michael:  Both just as bad.

Sid:  Legalism you may not lose your salvation with the hyper-grace I think that you could.

Michael:  Well you see legalism drives a lot of people away from Jesus; I hate legalism.

Sid: Right.

Michael:   Legalism is externally imposed religion; legalism is laws without love.  It’s standards without a Savior; it’s rules without a relationship.  And it drives a lot of people away from God because they think that God is just there with some stick.  See Sid some people have very sensitive consciences they do one thing. A mom yells at her kid during the day; a guy has a stray thought during the day and they think “Oh no God hates me; God’s upset with me; just like that church that I grew up in you know if the men wore  jewelry or a wedding ring they were in the flesh.  If I went to see a G-Rated movie with my family I was going to hell.”  So now they here a message of grace and forgiveness and you’re accepted because of what Jesus did; it’s not by your works God loves you even on your worst day.”  And they hear these wonderful truths and it liberates them “I’m free.”  But then it gets mixed with this error that says “Sid the moment you got saved God forgave past sins, present sins, and future sins.”  Rather than what scripture says Jesus paid for them and forgiveness is transacted when we come to God and confess and recognize our sin and ask for mercy.  So if I’m told “Mike, all your future sins are forgiven don’t have a sin consciousness.”  Okay, God forbid I go out and blow it and I start losing my temper all the time around my family around my friends.  And someone says “Mike something wrong you’re out of control.”  No, no no man you’re putting condemnation on me; that’s sin consciousness; I’m the righteousness of God in Christ; I’m under grace; I’m not under law.”  See that’s what is happening.

Sid: What will it lead to if it isn’t stopped; what will that lead to in your opinion?

Michael:  Hardness of heart; backsliding and ultimately denying Jesus and walking away from God.

Sid: So that’s the same thing that happened with the legalism 30, 40 years ago!

Michael:  Exactly!

Sid: It’s the flip side the devil couldn’t succeed with the legalism but now he’s coming in the backdoor.

Michael:  Exactly.  And see here’s what I’m jealous for I’m jealous for the person that has a sensitive conscience; I’m jealous for the person that says “But Sid the Bible tells me that I’m to love God with all my heart; all my soul and all mind; all my strength and love my neighbor as myself and I can’t do it.”  And so we want to bathe them in grace; we want to bathe them in favor; we want to bathe them in the understanding that we are carried by what Jesus has done; He’s our strength; He’s our power and then.  And here’s what we need to recognize hyper-grace teachers also say “We are not supposed to forgive our sins to God and ask for forgiveness because we have already been forgiven.”  Some even say it’s a sin to confess sin to God to ask forgiveness.  You say “What about 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins.”

Sid:  And that was written to believers not to nonbelievers.

Michael: Right. Across the board I’ve documented Sid in my book quote after quote; they say “No, no, no.”  There were Gnostics there were these people who had heretical belief that were part of John’s congregations and that letter was addressing Gnostics who claim   to be without sin and encouraging them to turn in faith and be saved. Number 1: There was no such thing as Gnosticism in a hardened form in that day, there was beginnings of Gnostic beliefs but nothing that you could call Gnosticism. Let’s just say that the beliefs were circulating, but what John makes absolutely clear that the heretics had left. First John 2 “They went out from among us.”  1 John 4 “We have overcome them.”  So the “they” is always the heretics on the outside; every top John scholar in the world that I’ve read recognizes that the heretics are outside.  John is talking about to believers and saying “Look if we say we have no sin like some of these Gnostics say we deceive ourselves.”  And here’s what’s really important; anyone that can read Greeks knows this you don’t have to be a Greek scholar.  The Greek is ongoing present “If we confess our sins in an ongoing way.”  Sid the Greek is very precise; it’s a precise clear language.  It’s not saying “If one time when we get saved we confess our sins.”  It’s saying this is the way of life.  This is why it’s important, I blow it I’m driving here a car cuts me off; this didn’t happen hypothetically.  A car cuts me off I lean on my horn and I yell “You jerk, what are you doing?”  And I say “Father, I’m so sorry” wash me, cleanse me, that’s not me that’s not who I am I want to serve You.”

Sid: You get your peace back all of a sudden.

Michael:  Right, right but if I don’t do that because I’m the righteousness of God in Christ and I can’t even talk about that.  Now it allows hardness to come in. Now it allows justification of my sin to come in because hey God doesn’t see it.  Sid it is taught in hyper-grace circles that God doesn’t see your sin ever.  And every day He looks at you Sid no matter what you’re doing or how you’re living He’s thrilled with you and He’s singing your praises.  That’s contrary to the entire New Testament and you have to say if we’re never supposed to be conscience of sin why does Paul bring it up in his letters all the time?  Why does Jesus bring it up in His teaching?  It’s because sin is deadly and God in His love and goodness and kindness convicts us; not condemns us.  Condemnation is “Get away you’re guilty.”  Conviction is “Come near to me.”

Sid: You know what I’m thinking?  Here we have Hollywood saying “Sin is okay.”  We have television saying “Sin is okay.” We have our education system saying “There’s no absolutes” and now we have a large segment of the Church…

Michael:  God does not see your sin.

Sid: Yeah.

Michael:  God doesn’t see it and it doesn’t affect anything. 

Sid: Well, that is… I hate to say this but that is a brilliant strategy of the devil!

Michael:  It is it’s the spirit of the age.

Sid: It’s a masterful strategy. Mike why did you write the book?

Michael:  I was compelled to write the book.  Number 1:  Because I love the grace of God and I hate to see something polluted.  Number 2: Because I was watching life after life getting picked off and destroyed.  Number 3:  Because pastors and leaders around the world are saying “Mike, please write a book.”  In fact through you Sid we were able to bump up the publication date by 5 months to get this out.  That’s how urgent it is.

Sid: God wants this… I did what I had to do but it was really God. I’m telling you that you… if it’s not you you have friends and family that are going to get into this heresy.  Mike has quotes and he has names.  You know I was talking to our mutual friend Steve Hill about naming names and he said “Sid did you know in the New Testament when people were into heresy their names were named right in the New Testament.

Michael:  And here’s the thing; I want to help people so I say “Amen to the good things.”  Some of these people have gone off the deep end and are not even in the Lord anymore.  But those that are Brother and Sisters I plan on being with them for eternity; I’m jealous for them too.  I’m saying “I have a corrective for you; I’m reaching out to you; this is such a great message.”  Some of them have a great revelation of grace but they got so caught up with it they forgot to stay tethered to the word and start denying scriptural truths and rewriting things.  And especially if you can read the Hebrew and Greek you throw the teaching out in a split second.   I’ve reached out to them so far without success but I’m hoping that some will recognize the error that they’re mixing with the truth and will come right back to scripture.

Sid: And the anger that I bump into…

Michael:  Ooo.

Sid: When I talk about “But look at this scripture” and they start calling me names using scripture.

Michael: Yeah, one guy started calling me a jerk on my Facebook page and I said “You know I don’t take comments like that.”  I don’t know if he was a believer or not; I said “I hope that you really come to know God’s grace and love.”  And he writes back furious “How dare you say “I don’t know God’s grace and love; how dare…”  It gets’ really nasty with me and I said to him “You know actually if you were really touched by God’s grace and love expect a different response.”  I have a whole chapter on name calling, judgmentalism, divisiveness in the name of grace.  Sid I have never seen something nastier more divisive in the so called message of grace that’s gone forth today.     

Sid: And they say “There’s no need to confess sin and to repent and the Holy Spirit doesn’t even convict of sin anymore.  What a setup by the devil.